Biturbo clock confusion - help appreciated!

[HaydnW]

Love that, quite unusual colour.

Thank you - it is unusual, it looks great in the sunshine too.

The Montreal was gorgeous - I've always loved them. The 222 is quite special as well.

Look forward to meeting you somewhere.

I'm glad you liked it - it usually draws a bit of attention, much of the time from people who've never seen one before which is understandable. It makes a great noise too. I look forward to meeting you too!

I love that. Gorgeous colour.

I've got a thing for 80's and 90's Masers.
If only I had the space, I 'd have a couple of them by now.

Thanks! Yep I quite agree, there's something special about them.

Good luck with your project, fun times ahead for sure

Thanks, with any luck I won't run into any serious complications...if I do, expect to see me asking for help on here.

Hey Haydn,

Well done- that is terrific. I'm sure it's all going to work out.

What can you tell us about the non-running..?

Thanks, I hope so too. I'm desperate to start working on it, I think it's gonna be an interesting experience. I'm also fairly sure the exhaust aren't factory items so I'd love to know what it sounds like too!

At the moment the non-running is a combination of two factors. Firstly, if you turn the key to the start position you can hear a sound of metal-on-metal scratching, which to me sounds very much like the gear on the starter motor is worn and therefore can't contact the flywheel sufficiently enough to turn the engine over. The previous owner did tell me that he had tried multiple attempts to start the car during its time spent living in a barn, figuring that there was an issue with the immobiliser or battery, so I think it's a distinct possibility that this has worn down the gear on the starter motor. I do know the engine isn't seized however, as before buying the car I put it in gear and with some help I pushed the car a few feet, and the belts and pulleys seemed to be turning OK.

The second factor is that I have limited history for the car and therefore don't know how old the timing equipment is (belt, tensioner and so on). I do know that the car was unused between 2012 to 2016 so logic suggests the cambelt will be at least 4 years old, so even if I could start the car I'm not sure I'd want to as I don't want to risk the belt breaking. It would be nice to hear the engine run before I start working on the car, so I can gauge how healthy it is, but I'd rather not risk it really.

Lovely looking 222 Haydn, welcome to the forum!

Thanks very much!

 

[dickyb]

Looks very nice, hope you manage to get it started ok, as you say it'll be a good idea to change the timing belt/water pump etc before attempting to run the engine. Its not too bad a job just a fair bit of dismantling involved. Listen out for the cam chains once you get it running, if they're rattly they'll need changing too which unfortunately is easiest to do with the engine removed. Maserati recommend changing them every 48000 miles so in theory yours are due for a change but in practice if they are quiet they will be ok. Regular oil changes are the key to prolonging their life. It would also be an idea to check the valve clearances, if they are out of tolerance it can seriously affect performance.

Not sure how much of a purist/perfectionist you are but your rear badges aren't correct, the Maserati badge on the left side of the bootlid on your car is the later type and you are missing the all important 4v badge next to your 222 badge



Looks like you are missing some wheel centre caps, try www.kjbparts.com, he has some in stock.

You are correct in thinking that the other fairly well known 222 4v in the UK is the red one which was sold recently. There was also a dark red one (Rosso Oriente) but that one was rear ended and broken up for parts about 5 years ago. I know of 3 in Australia, so with yours, the red one and the written off car we can account for just under half of the RHD 222 4Vs, where are the others I wonder?

 

[general_piffle]

I quite fancy a 222 if I could find one at a decent price. How practical would one be as a daily driver I wonder?

 

[HaydnW]

Looks very nice, hope you manage to get it started ok, as you say it'll be a good idea to change the timing belt/water pump etc before attempting to run the engine. Its not too bad a job just a fair bit of dismantling involved. Listen out for the cam chains once you get it running, if they're rattly they'll need changing too which unfortunately is easiest to do with the engine removed. Maserati recommend changing them every 48000 miles so in theory yours are due for a change but in practice if they are quiet they will be ok. Regular oil changes are the key to prolonging their life. It would also be an idea to check the valve clearances, if they are out of tolerance it can seriously affect performance.

Not sure how much of a purist/perfectionist you are but your rear badges aren't correct, the Maserati badge on the left side of the bootlid on your car is the later type and you are missing the all important 4v badge next to your 222 badge

View attachment 37169

Looks like you are missing some wheel centre caps, try www.kjbparts.com, he has some in stock.

You are correct in thinking that the other fairly well known 222 4v in the UK is the red one which was sold recently. There was also a dark red one (Rosso Oriente) but that one was rear ended and broken up for parts about 5 years ago. I know of 3 in Australia, so with yours, the red one and the written off car we can account for just under half of the RHD 222 4Vs, where are the others I wonder?

That's a very helpful post, thanks very much. The plan is to remove the engine and then perform all the necessary work on it while it's out just to make life easier really. I was planning to replace the timing chain regardless, at least that way I know it's OK and shouldn't give me any problems for a while. Having the engine out also gives me the opportunity to give it a thorough clean and repaint various parts (such as the cam covers) as well as clean up the engine bay and check for any other jobs that need doing that would need to be done with the engine removed. I don't want to have to remove it twice - I've been through that with one of my Alfas, it's not a fun experience. Thanks for the tip re: the valve clearances too.

Regarding the badges, you are of course correct! That's something I noticed in the pictures before I viewed the car. I've got the correct Maserati script ready to fit to the left side of the bootlid, but I'll need to source a 4V badge and then move the 222 over slightly to make room for it. I imagine KJB parts will have a 4V badge?

I have the wheel centre caps in a box somewhere, they're still the original silver so I'll use them as a reference when I have the wheels repainted. I don't mind the black wheels, however:
A) I feel like black hides the detail of the wheels
B) I'd like to retain the originality of the car.

While on the subject of originality and correct parts, can anyone shed some light on my rear spoiler? All the pictures of 222 4Vs I have seen have shown a spoiler with gaps to let air through, raised slightly off the bootlid such as on the red car pictured above, whereas mine has the version with no gaps. I think my version was fitted to other variants of 222 but not the 4V - I'm happy to be corrected however, I was just curious.

That's an interesting thought regarding the remaining RHD 4V cars - they must be out there somewhere. The internet is a big place, I'd imagine with a lot of digging they could be found.

I quite fancy a 222 if I could find one at a decent price. How practical would one be as a daily driver I wonder?

Hard to say really. I think they're usually quite well priced for what they are, but I don't expect them to stay this way, hence why I felt the need to get hold of one. It would certainly brighten up a daily commute anyway!

 

[dickyb]

If you're going to take the engine out it would be a very good idea to change the timing chains, as i'm sure you know the 24v Biturbo engine has a timing belt on the front of the engine that drives the exhaust camshafts, then each exhaust camshaft has a chain to drive its neighbouring intake camshaft. Be sure to change the chain sprockets too & do change the waterpump while you're at it as they can do have a finite lifespan. Your parts bill will be pretty high & its quite a complex job but if you do everything yourself it'll save you at least £2k in labour. If it were me i'd change the timing belt & waterpump then get the car running. That way you'll be able to get a good idea of the condition of the exhaust manifolds & turbos as you'll hear any blowing from exhausts & will see any smoke associated with turbo wear. These issues are easier to spot with the engine running rather than a visual inspection of the components but both are engine out jobs to fix but no issue if its coming out anyway.

As you have noticed, your rear spoiler is not the type you'd normally see on a 222 4v, it looks like the earlier one piece type fitted to some second series cars from around 1988. Most later cars would have the 3 piece type as first fitted to models such as the 2.24v but that doesn't necessarily mean yours has had a replacement, Maserati often fitted whatever came to hand when the cars were built so you do see early parts on later cars sometimes.

I've had a search for a part number for the 4v badge and haven't had much luck I'm afraid. The Eurospares parts diagrams don't list the 4v version of the 222 so I had a look at the 430 diagrams as there was also a 430 4v, unfortunately the badge for that isn't listed. I also had a look at the factory diagrams using my login but unfortunately they don't go back as far as the 222. My only suggestion would be to speak to Ross at Meridien Modena, he should be able to help.

I remembered that I know of at least 1 RHD 222 4v in Thailand, possibly 2.

In theory you could use a Biturbo every day, in fact I know of a couple with over 300,000kms on the clock, but in practice I would say it wouldn't be a good idea. Mechanically the car would be fine, although with 6000 mile service intervals it'd be in the shop quite a lot. The bodies rust very badly so after a short time of winter & wet weather use you'd find yourself with a very rusty car. Add to that the likelihood of melting the fusebox every time you turned on the heated rear windscreen & fairly high maintenance costs I think you'd be better off using a Biturbo as a fun second car rather than a daily (unless you live in a warm, dry climate )

 

[del mar]

Dickyb

have you ever come across a 2.8 Spyder ?

I have never liked the look of the original ones, but the later car with the more modern front end looks quite nice.

del

 

[dickyb]

Hi Del

Yes I've come across a few 2.8 Spyders although they are becoming a little thin on the ground in the UK these days. They came to the UK from about 1989 onwards, the earliest I've seen were on an F-plate and have the early type shallow bumpers such as this one:



A little later on, from around 1990 onwards the bumpers became a little deeper and look much nicer in my opinion.





I've also seen a few cars with the shallow front bumper and deeper rear bumper, probably a case of Maserati using up the old parts on the production line.


The last version of the Biturbo Spyder was known as the Spyder III (cat) and arrived in around 1992 which is probably the one you are referring to. It had the same Marcello Gandini facelift of the other models in the range at the time (new 7 spoke wheels, spoiler at the base of the windscreen), I only know of 4 UK cars so finding one of those would be difficult, they also attract quite a premium due to their rarity. The Spyder III was also available in Italy with the 2 litre 24v engine which actually has a little more power than the export market 2.8 3v motor. The Spyder was the only Biturbo model never to receive the 2.8 24v motor as Maserati did not consider the Spyder chassis able to take the power:





There was also a prototype known as the OPAC Spyder which used the running gear of the Shamal (3.2 V8 twin turbo), I believe only 1 was built, the Ferrari takeover stopped any further development







hope that's of some use

 

[del mar]

Evening,

Yes the yellow one the early ones don't work for me. There are a couple for sale in Germany for €14k upwards - not sure I would be brave enough to drive then all the way home though !

The opac spyder comes up for sale every so often- odd looking car a bit Ferrari 456 .

Thanks

Del

 

[del mar]

Evening,

Yes the yellow one the early ones don't work for me. There are a couple for sale in Germany for €14k upwards - not sure I would be brave enough to drive then all the way home though !

The opac spyder comes up for sale every so often- odd looking car a bit Ferrari 456 .

Thanks

Del

 

[dickyb]

Yes Germany is one of the best places to find one at the moment, they sold quite a few there & the prices of some are still reasonable although they are creeping up, there are a couple of cars up for €35000. Prices in Italy are going crazy, even early carb cars are now €25000+ although whether they actually sell at that price remains to be seen.

 

[HaydnW]

If you're going to take the engine out it would be a very good idea to change the timing chains, as i'm sure you know the 24v Biturbo engine has a timing belt on the front of the engine that drives the exhaust camshafts, then each exhaust camshaft has a chain to drive its neighbouring intake camshaft. Be sure to change the chain sprockets too & do change the waterpump while you're at it as they can do have a finite lifespan. Your parts bill will be pretty high & its quite a complex job but if you do everything yourself it'll save you at least £2k in labour. If it were me i'd change the timing belt & waterpump then get the car running. That way you'll be able to get a good idea of the condition of the exhaust manifolds & turbos as you'll hear any blowing from exhausts & will see any smoke associated with turbo wear. These issues are easier to spot with the engine running rather than a visual inspection of the components but both are engine out jobs to fix but no issue if its coming out anyway.

As you have noticed, your rear spoiler is not the type you'd normally see on a 222 4v, it looks like the earlier one piece type fitted to some second series cars from around 1988. Most later cars would have the 3 piece type as first fitted to models such as the 2.24v but that doesn't necessarily mean yours has had a replacement, Maserati often fitted whatever came to hand when the cars were built so you do see early parts on later cars sometimes.

I've had a search for a part number for the 4v badge and haven't had much luck I'm afraid. The Eurospares parts diagrams don't list the 4v version of the 222 so I had a look at the 430 diagrams as there was also a 430 4v, unfortunately the badge for that isn't listed. I also had a look at the factory diagrams using my login but unfortunately they don't go back as far as the 222. My only suggestion would be to speak to Ross at Meridien Modena, he should be able to help.

I remembered that I know of at least 1 RHD 222 4v in Thailand, possibly 2.

Thanks again for another helpful post. I looked into the feasibility of working on the car myself prior to purchase, so I'm aware of the rather unusual timing arrangement. My basic plan going forward is to fix/replace as many items as possible such that the car should run without issue, I'm aware of the car's rarity and 'significance' (for want of a better word) so I feel it's my responsibility to do the car justice, if you see what I mean. I'll add the chain sprockets to the list of things to replace. The parts cost will be significant as you say, but so long as I can properly maintain the car (which is my primary concern) and restore it to full working order I'm sure it will be worth it. I'll certainly be doing the work myself, I enjoy working on my cars...at least while things are going to plan!

You make a good point regarding getting the engine running before removing it - I'm obviously new to these cars and you clearly know your stuff, so I'm more than happy to listen and learn. I'll admit I'm not much of a turbo expert, so I was considering removing the pair and taking them to a turbo specialist just to gauge what kind of condition they're in. Knowing the turbos are good would give me peace of mind. Am I right in saying the starter motor is located atop the gearbox bellhousing, below the airbox? As this will need changing too, in reference to my earlier posts.

Yep the spoiler is a single piece item as opposed to the later type. I'll probably keep it for now, best to spend money where it's needed before splashing out on other items. Thank you for trying to unearth a 4V badge too, that's much appreciated. I'm sure I'll get my hands on one eventually, I tend to be quite resourceful in terms of finding parts, a skill which comes naturally when owning Italian cars...

Another quick question, for anyone that's happy to answer: I've been looking for a reference guide for parts/part numbers for the car, what kind of information does the following contain? I'm looking for something with 'exploded' diagrams showing different areas of the car, with associated parts and part numbers, like the diagrams used on the eurospares website.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Parts-Man...hash=item2369a9911c:m:mKfxqwWIhSdXhvNM8jXSxlQ

Thanks,
Haydn

 

[HaydnW]

Or, another potential solution to the badge issue...buy a 4.24V badge from eurospares, and (carefully!) separate the 4V section?
http://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/maserati/418/all/external-finishing-24041/328353369

 

[dickyb]

Yes, correct, the starter motor lives on top of the engine under the intake manifold (& airbox on your car). Probably a good idea to order some replacement gaskets/seals for the intake manifold, they're fairly cheap.

Your idea for the turbos is a good one, an inspection won't be to expensive & will confirm what needs doing. They can be very durable if they have been warmed/cooled down carefully but I guess you don't know how the previous owner had driven the car.

Nice thought with the badge, if you can't get a 4v badge, lop a bit off a 4.24v or 2.24v badge.

The manual you suggest might be an idea but you could save money by just looking on the Eurospares website when you need parts, there are also some workshop manuals on Enrico's site www.maserati-alfieri.co.uk. If you need an engine manual you'll need the Quattroporte iv manual as the 24v engine isn't covered by the Biturbo manuals.

 

[HaydnW]

Thanks dickyb. I'll be replacing gaskets and seals as I work just to be thorough. I've read several times that the starter motors for these cars can be a bit of a weak point, potentially due to their exposure to heat. Is there anything I can do about this - is there a known replacement that's a little stronger than the original unit? I don't want to have to take it off again in the future (at least not for a while, anyway). I think the correct part no. is D6RA64. I could also have the original starter refurbished.

Regarding the turbos, that's basically my thoughts in a nutshell. I've got little history with the car and not much knowledge of how well it has been cared for, so I'd rather be safe and have them inspected for the sake of a little bit more expense. I might even look into having them upgraded best to get the car running first though.

I did wonder if using the eurospares website as a reference for parts would be feasible as they don't seem to cater specifically for the 4V, and there may be parts specific to and/or different for the 4V as opposed to other versions of the 222, and obviously I'd feel better knowing the parts I'm buying are 100% the correct items. I printed off a couple of manuals a few months ago, one of which is the V6 24v 4AC Quattroporte engine manual which should be perfect for my engine

 

[chad5k1]

The starter is not great, I seem to remember they used a fairly bog standard unit that was not really up to the job of a bigger, heavier task. That being said, it is cheap to buy, or refurb and readily available. It's just the pain of doing the work becuase of it's position. In 20 years, 60k and lots of track miles, we have had one failure and that was last year. Not sure on others experience.

 

[Ewan]

When the starter motor on my Ghibli Cup failed I had it repaired with better internals - arranged by Emblem. Cheaper and better than a straight replacement.

 

[GeoffCapes]

All this chat about 222's, Ghibli II's and Bi-Turbo's has given me major car envy.

What's the best places to look for one of these beauties? Obviously I know Car & Classic. Anywhere else?

 

[Ewan]

They crop up on Enricos pages from time to time, and there are some Biturbo's and 222's on EBay now. Classic Driver sometimes has some also.

 

[HaydnW]

The starter is not great, I seem to remember they used a fairly bog standard unit that was not really up to the job of a bigger, heavier task. That being said, it is cheap to buy, or refurb and readily available. It's just the pain of doing the work becuase of it's position. In 20 years, 60k and lots of track miles, we have had one failure and that was last year. Not sure on others experience.

That's basically what I've read/heard on several occasions. To tell the truth, once the 222 is up and running I'll only be using it for weekends during the summer, so the starter shouldn't see that much use. Thus a replacement should last me a while.

When the starter motor on my Ghibli Cup failed I had it repaired with better internals - arranged by Emblem. Cheaper and better than a straight replacement.

Good to know, thanks. This is probably the route I'll take.

All this chat about 222's, Ghibli II's and Bi-Turbo's has given me major car envy.

What's the best places to look for one of these beauties? Obviously I know Car & Classic. Anywhere else?

I would just browse any of the well known classic car sales websites. Here's a few examples:

Obviously there is Car and Classic (from where I bought mine) which seems to have quite a few to browse through: http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/list/30/
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/search/type-motors/subtype-classic+cars/make-maserati
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...3&M=711&M=716&M=717&YearFrom=1982&YearTo=2000
http://www.classicandsportscar.com/classifieds?Category=classic-cars&M=715&M=713&M=711&M=716&Page=1
The eBay 222s as mentioned by Ewan above:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_o...XMaserati+222.TRS0&_nkw=Maserati+222&_sacat=0
A quick link to Enrico's page: http://www.maserati-alfieri.co.uk/alfieri00a.htm
Here's another site I like to use, there's bucket loads of rare and unusual cars on here - well worth a browse during your downtime: http://www.anamera.com/en/find/list/index.html?no_cache=1

...and so on!

 

[HaydnW]

To return to the clock questions for a moment; is the following eBay clock the right part? I'm not fully sure, however I'm almost certain the chap selling it is the same guy I bought the 222 from (which obviously is missing the clock). http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maserati-da...%3A55f93d4e1550a2af34b83f7bffff6efc%7Ciid%3A2

From pictures of other cars similar to mine, this clock looks correct (slightly different to the one in the link above): http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maserati-Bi...hand-drive-313670119-/172115405933?nav=SEARCH

And here's another that I recently missed out on, which I'm sure would have been the correct version: http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maserati-Cl...3A560213f61550a357d032734dffff7f39%7Ciid%3A14