my 3200 was sat un-used for some time over the last week, i came to it today to get it ready for ace cafe and the battery was rather flat (that is normal because it has large drain from the sound system/lights which stay on when car is off so i know if i dont use it for 5 days or so, it will be too flat to start) i jump started it from another car, and since then the alternator no longer works, im not sure if its just suddenly happened since its been stood this week or if i have blown a fuse or something when jump starting, any ideas, i dont have a clue where to even start, dont tend to get envolved with electrics !
3200 alternator
- Thread starter beau
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conaero
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As Cat says it could be the guage.
Easiest check is to put a volt meter across the battery whilst running. You should get a reading of just over 14 volts. Do the same with the ignition off and you should get 12.5v or more if not then you can work out which component is stuffed.
Easiest check is to put a volt meter across the battery whilst running. You should get a reading of just over 14 volts. Do the same with the ignition off and you should get 12.5v or more if not then you can work out which component is stuffed.
CatmanV2
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Need to measure the output at the alternator, there may be a disconnect between the alternator and the battery of some kind.
I also wonder if the battery is stuffed, and gone short some how, that may cause the voltage to drop. I'm just struggling to see how an alternator that was working when you parked up would suddenly not be working next time you started. I know it's possible, but I'd be looking at the battery as a far more likely culprit, especially if it's been regularly deep discharged.
C
I also wonder if the battery is stuffed, and gone short some how, that may cause the voltage to drop. I'm just struggling to see how an alternator that was working when you parked up would suddenly not be working next time you started. I know it's possible, but I'd be looking at the battery as a far more likely culprit, especially if it's been regularly deep discharged.
C
Danny
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I ordered one of these yesterday: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/10/prweb10047121.htm. I don't know yet how the additional features work, but it should be able to test the performance of the alternator.
CatmanV2
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I have that one as well. In honesty, I think the claim that it's measuring alternator performance is stretching it a bit. I guess you can accept that if the battery condition is good, and it's not charging, it may be the alternator, but I can think of other things (poor connections, loose drivebelts, stuffed regulators) which could cause it as well.
Lots of nice lights, though
C
Lots of nice lights, though
C
davy83
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Jump starting these cars is not a good idea. The distance between the battery and the starter creates major voltage kicks. I did it once and it took me ages to sort out all the electrical systems that got broke, never again!!! Was the other car running when you jump started it? The problem might be when your car starts running if the alternator creates a higher voltage than other cars, the alternator in your car will then try to charge both cars batteries, and this might have fried it? I have a C-TEK and pop it on any time the car is sitting even for a few days, great device!
ledlights
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Hi,
I've seen diodes go on the rectifier boards in alternators from both jump starting and use of MIG welding (with the battery but not the alternator disconnected). I have a feeling it's caused by exceeding their current rating, so in the jump starting case it's when the jump battery is disconnected and there is a sudden surge in current supply provided by the car's alternator.
Beau, if you can remove the alternator there's a good chance you could get a new rectifier board for it at an alternator reconditioners.
Steve
I've seen diodes go on the rectifier boards in alternators from both jump starting and use of MIG welding (with the battery but not the alternator disconnected). I have a feeling it's caused by exceeding their current rating, so in the jump starting case it's when the jump battery is disconnected and there is a sudden surge in current supply provided by the car's alternator.
Beau, if you can remove the alternator there's a good chance you could get a new rectifier board for it at an alternator reconditioners.
Steve
CatmanV2
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I can see that there may be an increase in current when the jump battery is disconnected, but I can't see how they would exceed the design spec.
After all, V=IR and that's constant.
Of course *that* would indicate that the current would in fact *drop* as resistance will increase by removal of the second battery, which would be in parallel to the car's and therefore would cause a smaller resistance and therefore an greater current for the same voltage. I'm thinking that something is amiss there, however, since I would *assume* the jump battery is adding energy to the system, while the car's battery is absorbing energy to increase it's level of charge. Or of course, it could be increasing the drain on the system as it will *also* be recovering to its maximum level of charge, having given up energy to start the car.
So, not at all simple. I've been looking for a long time for someone to explain the physics about why jump starting is such a bad idea. Not found anyone yet. Even then 4200 manual says it's allowed.
My strong suspicion is that it's been discouraged by car manufacturers simply cos too many people get it wrong, and then fry something. Which is a rather different thing.
Always willing to learn though, as I'm *sure* someone must know.
Mig welding I can see for sure: Many volts
C
After all, V=IR and that's constant.
Of course *that* would indicate that the current would in fact *drop* as resistance will increase by removal of the second battery, which would be in parallel to the car's and therefore would cause a smaller resistance and therefore an greater current for the same voltage. I'm thinking that something is amiss there, however, since I would *assume* the jump battery is adding energy to the system, while the car's battery is absorbing energy to increase it's level of charge. Or of course, it could be increasing the drain on the system as it will *also* be recovering to its maximum level of charge, having given up energy to start the car.
So, not at all simple. I've been looking for a long time for someone to explain the physics about why jump starting is such a bad idea. Not found anyone yet. Even then 4200 manual says it's allowed.
My strong suspicion is that it's been discouraged by car manufacturers simply cos too many people get it wrong, and then fry something. Which is a rather different thing.
Always willing to learn though, as I'm *sure* someone must know.
Mig welding I can see for sure: Many volts
C
ledlights
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Hi,
The impedance of a lead acid battery doesn't change that much with state of charge and although you would expect the parallel batteries together to give a restance of R1R2/R1+R2 and the car's battery on it's own to give R1, what happens is that when the jump battery is disconnected there is a sudden collapse in the apparent voltage at the car's battery leading to a substantial increase in the current load on the alternator. I understand it's this spike that can cause the problem.
The MIG problem is similar in that the voltage generated is only around 20V but the current can be over 200A, and this is what can instantaneously pop the diodes.
Regards,
Steve
The impedance of a lead acid battery doesn't change that much with state of charge and although you would expect the parallel batteries together to give a restance of R1R2/R1+R2 and the car's battery on it's own to give R1, what happens is that when the jump battery is disconnected there is a sudden collapse in the apparent voltage at the car's battery leading to a substantial increase in the current load on the alternator. I understand it's this spike that can cause the problem.
The MIG problem is similar in that the voltage generated is only around 20V but the current can be over 200A, and this is what can instantaneously pop the diodes.
Regards,
Steve
CatmanV2
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Thanks, Steve. That makes a certain amount of sense about the voltage collapse, at least in theory. Would be interesting to actually measure it experimentally but can't for the life of me, see how one could. I guess you could measure the current load, and make in inference.
Certainly not disagreeing about the MIG. Can't for the life of me think where I got turned around with my volts and amps!
Cheers
C
Certainly not disagreeing about the MIG. Can't for the life of me think where I got turned around with my volts and amps!
Cheers
C
ledlights
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I don't think there is a fuse Beau. The output usually goes straight onto the solenoid.
As Conaero said, check the voltage across the battery with engine running. I must say, I think you've been spectacularly unlucky if the jump has caused your alternator to pack in. I've only seen it once in 27 years of having cars (including a lot of bangers).
Regards,
Steve
As Conaero said, check the voltage across the battery with engine running. I must say, I think you've been spectacularly unlucky if the jump has caused your alternator to pack in. I've only seen it once in 27 years of having cars (including a lot of bangers).
Regards,
Steve
davy83
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ok i will first off agree that I have jump started many cars with no problems. And the only car that I broke some thing was the 3200GTA. It broke one of the rear lamp controllers and also popped a couple of LEDs and a transistor in one of the bannana lights. So even if you don't believe the physics be careful please. Kicks come from inductive electrical devices end especially motors (like a starter motor) When you put a lot of current into the windings of the starter motor, you store energy in the motor windings. So when you stop cranking the engine this energy has to go some where. If the battery is really close (like it usually is) the battery takes this energy as a current back into the battery every thing is happy. If the starter is miles form the battery then there is a spike at the starter end of the cable and this spike can affect other parts of the 12 volt system. A car battery is usually good at absorbing these sort of spikes but if your battery is not working well (like it has died because of severe cold weather) then its internal resistance goes up, and its ability to soak up the kick off the starter is reduced. This is often when you want to jump start the car! By putting a set of jump leads between your starter motor and the good battery (the one in the car you are using to jump start with) you now have a seriously long wire and higher resistance between the energy in the starter and the battery which will absorb it. If your battery is in poor condition a considerable voltage hike for a very short time (fractions of a second) will be seen in the car. It will be highest near where the jump leads join the cable to the starter, i.e near the rear light controller!. So its not a definite no no, I could not say if it will or wont kill any thing but there is a risk. its a real risk, so after repairing my light controller and replacing my battery I wont be jump starting again!!! Make of this what you will gentlemen
CatmanV2
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Thanks, Beau. I can get the bit about the battery being dysfunctional, and, to a limited extend, the spike being higher near the battery. I'm struggling with the length of the wire piece. Yes the resistance will be higher, but really not much.
Not saying I won't be careful, though
C
Not saying I won't be careful, though
C
ledlights
Junior Member
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Hi Beau,
Could there be a break in the charge conductor from the alternator, it sounds like an air gap to me - if you're absolutely sure that the new alternator is working. I think you can check this with a bulb between the charge output on the alternator and an earth when the engine is running or you could do a continuity check on the charge cable from the alternator to the solenoid.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Could there be a break in the charge conductor from the alternator, it sounds like an air gap to me - if you're absolutely sure that the new alternator is working. I think you can check this with a bulb between the charge output on the alternator and an earth when the engine is running or you could do a continuity check on the charge cable from the alternator to the solenoid.
Hope this helps,
Steve