Todd's 2003 Spyder GT (re)build thread

Messages
346
It's a long and sordid story, but as we join in on chapter 3 or so, here's where we are. In January 2022, I purchased a 2003 Maserati Spyder GT, Med Blue over tan. Lovely machine. Purchased from a ML member here in the US, flew down from Seattle to the San Francisco area, and drove it the 800 miles back home through the mountains. Sedately cruising at 90-100mph much of the way.

As expected, it came with a short list of minor complaints to address in due time, and the clutch master cylinder failed on the drive home, adding a minor bit of drama, but it was thankfully only about 5 miles from home, so I idled in 2nd all the way to my drive. Then had to announce to the wife that the lovely new paperweight had arrived. She is a most understanding woman and humors me in my expensive hobby.

Addressed a few minor things while the winter/spring rains continued. One of which was a failed battery. Tried hunting down parasitic loads and didn't find any, so gave the car a jump start to run it under its own power and see if the alternator would charge it up for another parasitic load test, or if the battery was failed. Started the car, let it idle in the garage (yes, door open, before you ask), while I did other work. Voltmeter showed alternator working fine. Came back a bit later as something didn't sound right, and then the car shut itself off. Smelled like coolant in the garage, so of course my mind went straight to the heater core - no puddle on the floorboards, no steam on the windshield. Suffice to say, things are a bit more severe.

Took a look around and didn't see anything obvious, so restarted the car to see what I could see with the hood open - happily the car started under its own power (small victory). The damage was already done. Oil pressure sitting solidly at zero.
Car is now at the indy (thanks to my local towing service). Confirmed no oil pressure, no cylinder wall damage, but lots of metal in the oil. Still waiting for a full teardown, but obviously severe bearing damage, likely caused by a failed oil pump. Here's where my knowledge fails - indy mechanic (long time Ferrari mechanic) said these engines can have a water pump failure that causes a failure of oil pump.

Back of the envelope math says a complete engine rebuild would be... expensive. Thanks to eBay, I sourced a complete, in the box, F136 4.2V8, for a surprisingly low price. Engine has arrived, and there are a few things to work through. Engine has a different ignition wiring harness than the original. Both are definitely Maserati 4.2V8 of the same vintage, but slightly different. (there is no such thing as a surprisingly cheap maserati part, apparently)
Pulled the part number of the new engine's ignition wiring harness, and it corresponds to a non-F1, USA/Canada, no thermocouples set (206440). While my Spyder is a non-F1, USA/Canada, with thermocouples set (196332). This stopped us in our tracks, as now we have to figure out what all of the differences are between the two engines. If anyone has a cheat sheet to reference, or knowledge of what the differences are for various F136 configurations 2002-2007, that would be most appreciated.
Anyhow, I'll post in here how things are going, and then follow up with other improvements, fixes, and modifications. Hopefully back on the road in time to enjoy the all-too-brief Seattle convertible season!
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,262
Oh wow! That is a world of pain Todd; I'm sure we are all feeling for you this side of the pond... I think the only engine failures of note on the 4.2 engine have been related to failing water pump seal letting water into the oil pump via the shared drive shaft. Very hard to detect and nearly always terminal. I think two have been caught in time and full recoveries made by swapping the pumps and flushing the oil.

Wishing you every speedy success in the swap, can't help with the differences though!
 
Messages
346
Smeg. You’ve not had much luck! Is the engine the different cat versions?
I'm not terribly well versed on the different cat versions - I know the difference between the US and Euro specs, but had no idea there were different US specs with and without the thermocouples.
 
Messages
346
Oh wow! That is a world of pain Todd; I'm sure we are all feeling for you this side of the pond... I think the only engine failures of note on the 4.2 engine have been related to failing water pump seal letting water into the oil pump via the shared drive shaft. Very hard to detect and nearly always terminal. I think two have been caught in time and full recoveries made by swapping the pumps and flushing the oil.

Wishing you every speedy success in the swap, can't help with the differences though!
You just helped by confirming, almost word for word, what the mechanic said was the likely mode of failure.
How would this be detected if one were to look to catch it early?
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,262
You just helped by confirming, almost word for word, what the mechanic said was the likely mode of failure.
How would this be detected if one were to look to catch it early?

I can't say for sure, other than possibly hearing a failing bearing (very unlikely), or being in the driving seat and spotting the instant the pressure drops and having the presence of mind to turn the engine off. I am pretty sure this latter is the version that happened on the car @philw696 bought with the failure and recovered.
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,262
Sadly the failure is internal unlike most water pumps that are belt driven that tend to fail bleeding coolant down thew front of the engine..
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,376
I can't say for sure, other than possibly hearing a failing bearing (very unlikely), or being in the driving seat and spotting the instant the pressure drops and having the presence of mind to turn the engine off. I am pretty sure this latter is the version that happened on the car @philw696 bought with the failure and recovered.
Bang on the money there Newton I took a gamble and was very lucky no damage done.
This one though I'm sure with metal particles in the oil is going to be a different story.
 
Messages
208
Sorry to hear things have gone the way they have Todd...
(and welcome to the exclusive 'Maserati Spyder with buggered engine' club)

All kidding aside, did you guys open up the engine?
(just wondering if maybe with the 2 engines you can build 1 good, despite the differences...)
 

DLax69

Member
Messages
4,265
It's a long and sordid story, but as we join in on chapter 3 or so, here's where we are. In January 2022, I purchased a 2003 Maserati Spyder GT, Med Blue over tan. Lovely machine. Purchased from a ML member here in the US, flew down from Seattle to the San Francisco area, and drove it the 800 miles back home through the mountains. Sedately cruising at 90-100mph much of the way.

As expected, it came with a short list of minor complaints to address in due time, and the clutch master cylinder failed on the drive home, adding a minor bit of drama, but it was thankfully only about 5 miles from home, so I idled in 2nd all the way to my drive. Then had to announce to the wife that the lovely new paperweight had arrived. She is a most understanding woman and humors me in my expensive hobby.

Addressed a few minor things while the winter/spring rains continued. One of which was a failed battery. Tried hunting down parasitic loads and didn't find any, so gave the car a jump start to run it under its own power and see if the alternator would charge it up for another parasitic load test, or if the battery was failed. Started the car, let it idle in the garage (yes, door open, before you ask), while I did other work. Voltmeter showed alternator working fine. Came back a bit later as something didn't sound right, and then the car shut itself off. Smelled like coolant in the garage, so of course my mind went straight to the heater core - no puddle on the floorboards, no steam on the windshield. Suffice to say, things are a bit more severe.

Took a look around and didn't see anything obvious, so restarted the car to see what I could see with the hood open - happily the car started under its own power (small victory). The damage was already done. Oil pressure sitting solidly at zero.
Car is now at the indy (thanks to my local towing service). Confirmed no oil pressure, no cylinder wall damage, but lots of metal in the oil. Still waiting for a full teardown, but obviously severe bearing damage, likely caused by a failed oil pump. Here's where my knowledge fails - indy mechanic (long time Ferrari mechanic) said these engines can have a water pump failure that causes a failure of oil pump.

Back of the envelope math says a complete engine rebuild would be... expensive. Thanks to eBay, I sourced a complete, in the box, F136 4.2V8, for a surprisingly low price. Engine has arrived, and there are a few things to work through. Engine has a different ignition wiring harness than the original. Both are definitely Maserati 4.2V8 of the same vintage, but slightly different. (there is no such thing as a surprisingly cheap maserati part, apparently)
Pulled the part number of the new engine's ignition wiring harness, and it corresponds to a non-F1, USA/Canada, no thermocouples set (206440). While my Spyder is a non-F1, USA/Canada, with thermocouples set (196332). This stopped us in our tracks, as now we have to figure out what all of the differences are between the two engines. If anyone has a cheat sheet to reference, or knowledge of what the differences are for various F136 configurations 2002-2007, that would be most appreciated.
Anyhow, I'll post in here how things are going, and then follow up with other improvements, fixes, and modifications. Hopefully back on the road in time to enjoy the all-too-brief Seattle convertible season!
That's what you get for opening the garage door.
 
Messages
346
Sorry to hear things have gone the way they have Todd...
(and welcome to the exclusive 'Maserati Spyder with buggered engine' club)

All kidding aside, did you guys open up the engine?
(just wondering if maybe with the 2 engines you can build 1 good, despite the differences...)

New engine should be good as is, once we sort out the minor installation differences like the ignition wiring harness. Luckily nothing else was damaged on the old engine externally, so just adds to the labor. Ahem, or shall I say, labouuuur.
Was hoping for a straight swap to make it somewhat less ludicrously expensive.
Looks like a new clutch is in order while we have things apart, too. Outer edge of flywheel had chattering burn marks - is this common on a GT? Might be related to the failing clutch master cylinder perhaps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

midlifecrisis

Member
Messages
16,185
Is the old/new engine California Spec?

I remember from my Kawasaki days that there were Euro Spec (100bhp:mad:), UK Spec (125+bhp:thumb: ) , US Spec (49 States) and US (Cal) Spec. Mainly for emissions.

Wishing you the best of luck!
 

zagatoes30

Member
Messages
20,904
Not a great story and not great entry into Maserati world, hopefully the differences between looms and engines can be addressed quickly and the new engine can be fitted - they are a pain but are really worth it you just have to shrug when you see the bills
 
Messages
346
Have you contacted one of the friendly main dealers in UK or good independents ? Often a phone call will enable a lookup of the VIN number to determine specific engine type. Maybe a reverse lookup might reveal the donor engine's original car.

Main dealer Ross Peters rosspeters@meridien.co.uk
Specialist for "modern classic" mike Roberts??

Seems GT is too new for Enrico http://www.maserati-alfieri.co.uk/alfieri00a.htm
Unfortunately I'm in the USA, so the density of knowledgeable communities isn't quite the same as the UK... which is why I engage this group more than the ML group. You've helped me work through many a repair in past on my previous Coupe'.
The engine from eBay is brand new, in the box, so there's no donor car VIN to pull. And the part number for the crate engine appears to be a one-size-fits-all part number, that must have been configured as part of delivery with the externals such as the ignition wiring harness differences that I found.
1685897586191.png
Looking forward to Monday to learn more with the mechanic. Shop's closed up over the weekend, so all we can do until taking another look is hypothesize, unless someone here has a list or reference for what the different f136 options were for 2002-2007, so that we know we have found *all* of the relevant parts to cannibalize off my current engine.
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,229
There were, to my knowledge, two versions in the coupe. F136R for the coupe and F136RB for the Gransport. To find out the differences you’d have to trawl through the parts lists.

736031040 appears to correlate back to it being a coupe (F136R) engine with an F1 gearbox.
 

DLax69

Member
Messages
4,265
There were, to my knowledge, two versions in the coupe. F136R for the coupe and F136RB for the Gransport. To find out the differences you’d have to trawl through the parts lists.

736031040 appears to correlate back to it being a coupe (F136R) engine with an F1 gearbox.
Ahhhh...there we go. Maybe? 6MT v CC...
 
Messages
346
There were, to my knowledge, two versions in the coupe. F136R for the coupe and F136RB for the Gransport. To find out the differences you’d have to trawl through the parts lists.

736031040 appears to correlate back to it being a coupe (F136R) engine with an F1 gearbox.

Looking at the ignition wiring harness there are at least four permutations. CC/MT being one, thermocouple/non thermocouple, USA/non USA, RHD/LHD

Where were you able to correlate the part number to a specify M138 variant?


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Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,229
It says 05-07. So I’d bet on it not having thermocouples. The description is: Valid for F1 - Not for USA, CDN and RHD.

I found it on google, the P/N is on Scuderia Car Parts.