Reading the ECM and Gearbox

tulit

Member
Messages
110
I've been playing around with some off-the-shelf low cost ELM327 based OBD tools (literally a $25 Bluetooth dongle) seeing if I could successfully connect to the some of the computers on these cars.

I've been successful in reading and decoding what I believe to be the engine coolant temperature on the ECU (note this isn't via the standard OBD method, but rather customer parameters), and the F1 hydraulic pressure on the gearbox.

I wanted to document some of these while I try and build out a open-source in-dash monitoring system showing me vitals on these cars for suggestions and input.

https://gransportmaserati.wordpress.com/2020/06/22/reading-the-ecu-and-gearbox-computer/
 

lambertius

Banned
Messages
341
That is super cool! When are you going to pull the map off the hardware and start making custom TCU maps???? ;)
 

tulit

Member
Messages
110
Suspect if it were possible somehow would have done it. ECU is relatively easy. Unfortunately there’s next to no info on the gearbox computers.
 

azapa

Member
Messages
1,300
Excellent work. Keep going, I really don't think your assumption above is correcy (if it were that easy etc etc). It may very well be real easy, and no one has tried yet as it is a niche car. Tinkerers have never been encouraged in these brands. GO FOR IT!
 

tulit

Member
Messages
110
Anyone have a spare TCU to donate to the cause :). As you say anythings possible - but I’m not really willing to risk mine for the investigation ;). It would be a cheaper/easier alternative to the piggyback solutions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

lambertius

Banned
Messages
341
Anyone have a spare TCU to donate to the cause :). As you say anythings possible - but I’m not really willing to risk mine for the investigation ;). It would be a cheaper/easier alternative to the piggyback solutions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah a piggy back is what FD is doing, though as best I can tell what they're doing is spoofing the RPM between the ECM and TCU.

I do have TCU bin files for the F360 CS which uses the same model ECU. I've also spoken to the dude in France who reflashes the TCU files and he had started to build a definitions list previously but lost interest. There is also a fellow in Melbourne who looked at it briefly, but never really followed it up.

I think the most difficult thing would be that there are no change logs between TCU software versions. If ABC differed from XYZ by changing RPM of engagement by 10, it would be pretty easy to start building definition changes. As it is, I think you'd need two or three TCUs, play spot the difference on the code, take a guess and then change a value to the logical extreme so that you can witness the change and confirm it. I'd be keen to give it a go, but right now I'm focusing on hardware repairs. If I knew I could get a couple of people to help me I'd be far more keen, and I can pick up a couple of TCU versions from different wreckers.
 

lambertius

Banned
Messages
341
I don't think you necessarily need multiple TCU's. Usually the trick is looking for maps in the memory dump that follow characteristic shapes and try and infer their meaning/purposes from there.

Care to send me the CS files?

PM me your email!
 

Twinspark

Member
Messages
460
I've actually heard it was possible to map the 360 CS programming onto the Maseratis ECU, but has anyone actually done it?

Do the improvements add to the FD DBW or not? I've had the FD DBW on my car and only knew later, the shifts are crisp, especially downshifts. Upshifts have a slight delay(It will only change gear after I press the paddle).
 

spn

Junior Member
Messages
88
Anyone have a spare TCU to donate to the cause :). As you say anythings possible - but I’m not really willing to risk mine for the investigation ;). It would be a cheaper/easier alternative to the piggyback solutions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why not test the theory on an Alfa Selespeed or Fiat Duologic TCU, probably the same hardware as the more expensive Maserati or Ferrari TCUs and available more cheaply. You could probably put a Maserati map on one.

Cheers,

Simon
 

lambertius

Banned
Messages
341
It has been done on our TCU units, but it's all been a bit of a secret/commercially not sold. Annoyingly.

Who? I haven't found anything regarding that.

I've actually heard it was possible to map the 360 CS programming onto the Maseratis ECU, but has anyone actually done it?

The software can be flashed on, but other than a listing I saw for sale once I've never seen anyone actually discuss whether or not they've tried it. My suspicion is that if you just swapped the TCU it would work, put probably not well. For example, I don't know if the gear ratios are accounted for or if the torque request is actually based on the known torque or just a percentage of available torque.

Why not test the theory on an Alfa Selespeed or Fiat Duologic TCU, probably the same hardware as the more expensive Maserati or Ferrari TCUs and available more cheaply. You could probably put a Maserati map on one.

Cheers,

Simon

That's a good idea.
 

Twinspark

Member
Messages
460
The software can be flashed on, but other than a listing I saw for sale once I've never seen anyone actually discuss whether or not they've tried it. My suspicion is that if you just swapped the TCU it would work, put probably not well. For example, I don't know if the gear ratios are accounted for or if the torque request is actually based on the known torque or just a percentage of available torque.
I was thinking more in regards to the part of the software that lets the car shift more aggressively. The GS supposedly is programmed to shift harder than the regular CC, but softer compared to the 360 CS.

There's the youtuber Ratarossa who converted a 360 into a CS, and managed to get the programming of it onto it. Although I suspect its easier to pull a few strings when you have that big of a platform, and swapping CS mapping onto a Modena is likely easier than CS mapping on a GS.
 

Mr S

Member
Messages
821
Also worth making sure the hardware is the same as the CS, pump etc. Last thing you want to do, is get the software side of things sorted, and within a year lunch the gearbox or associated parts. Wonder if Ferrari used the exact same gearbox etc as the standard 360, and just updated the software, of if they beefed up the internals. Or if they designed the box etc around the CS to start with, and just softened the software side of things for the regular car.
 

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,037
Who? I haven't found anything regarding that.



The software can be flashed on, but other than a listing I saw for sale once I've never seen anyone actually discuss whether or not they've tried it. My suspicion is that if you just swapped the TCU it would work, put probably not well. For example, I don't know if the gear ratios are accounted for or if the torque request is actually based on the known torque or just a percentage of available torque.



That's a good idea.


There is also the clutch from the 430 I believe that has also been fitted to some owners cars.
 

lambertius

Banned
Messages
341
I was thinking more in regards to the part of the software that lets the car shift more aggressively. The GS supposedly is programmed to shift harder than the regular CC, but softer compared to the 360 CS.

There's the youtuber Ratarossa who converted a 360 into a CS, and managed to get the programming of it onto it. Although I suspect its easier to pull a few strings when you have that big of a platform, and swapping CS mapping onto a Modena is likely easier than CS mapping on a GS.

Ratarossa is a nice dude, his name is Scott and I've reached out to him before. He put me in touch with an electrical engineer over in France by the name of Eric who flashes the 360 TCUs. The process is straightforward if you're familiar with embedded electronics, but would be a major pita for a newbie.

When I first got my car I asked about it on the other forum and pretty much got harassed off which is why I am doing my build threads on this one. Since then I've managed to dig up a bit more info on forums and old training manuals and such plus learning from troubleshooting mine. I'm still pretty convinced that the TCUs will work on a bunch of cars, even if it isn't well. The tech in this generation of cars is massively behind the curve compared to their contemporaries and so things like VIN recognition and other security (thankfully) don't exist. You can get a TCU from any Gransport and swap it, no issues. Which leads me onto the next point.

Also worth making sure the hardware is the same as the CS, pump etc. Last thing you want to do, is get the software side of things sorted, and within a year lunch the gearbox or associated parts. Wonder if Ferrari used the exact same gearbox etc as the standard 360, and just updated the software, of if they beefed up the internals. Or if they designed the box etc around the CS to start with, and just softened the software side of things for the regular car.

It is. Engineering for anything is always about cost-effectiveness. It is pretty common for cars in all brands to share components, but for the Fiat cars it is something else. I think it is because they were low volume so major components are shared between the cars at some ridiculous level with subtle changes which I can only assume are to intentionally prevent them from fitting. More than that, I'm pretty convinced that the transmission systems were implemented poorly on purpose. There is enough information in the sensors to double clutch and rev match but the system does neither, instead it rides the clutch in by revving up in between gear changes. Why they would do it that way isn't something I'll understand without seeing engineering documentation, but unless there is a Magnetti Marelli data breach floating around for sale on the dark web that isn't happening.


There is also the clutch from the 430 I believe that has also been fitted to some owners cars.

I saw a car last year that had an offhand comment like that as well. The question is what was the upgrade?

  1. Customised TCU flash
  2. Reflashed with the F360CS software
  3. Installation of the very first version of the CC software.

I've been trying to find someone with a CS in Perth who would let me swap the TCU temporarily, but as you can imagine that isn't easy. I'm not really keen to spend $700 on a TCU to reflash it as a test and find out it doesn't work. I have found a couple of CC TCUs I could reflash though, so it would be easy to do. The actual flashing process isn't difficult.

I've also found a V1 Coupe TCU, I've been talking price with the guy who has it for a while now. I don't think it will work though as the hardware is a different version but it is almost cheap enough to suck it and see.

I've also been sleuthing for a while trying to find one of the alleged CS flashes, and I may have found someone who will let me check the version of software on their TCU.
 

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,037
Mines still the very original V1 firmware on the first generation TCU hardware.
You need to be careful buying the first generation TCU for many got reflashed to the V2 firmware that was a retrograde step backwards, with no rev matching blips in sport and much softer changes.
I believe you can fit second generation TCU to a first generation TCU car however, like you can with Ferrari 360's. The Ferrari world buy Maserati TCU's to flash 360 CS firmware onto them and then fit to the earlier 360's that a lower memory TCU than our cars that can't accept the 360CS firmware.
 

lambertius

Banned
Messages
341
That's why I've been trying to talk him down. Only a small shot it is still running the original firmware.