Rant Thread

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CatmanV2

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I think that's quite unusual. Done in the pub for a laugh is easy to shrug off, If someone was just consistently misgendered - say at school, the workplace or at home - I think many people would find it corrosively upsetting.
How would you have felt if the bullies had decided to do this to you consistently when you arrived a secondary school?

We should just all speak Estonian and the problem would go away.

Well I was bullied, pretty much constantly from primary school until 18.

Try as I might, I can't honestly find it in myself to be more upset about being misgendered than any of the other things that were said about me that were untrue.

For the record I have no issue at all with anyone else making a point about their preferred pronouns but honest mistakes...

It also helps with people called Chris or Nic or Joan (that one might seem odd to most of you but I work with a lot of Spaniards) that you’ve only communicated by email with.

...as might happen in the above, should, surely, not cause more than the mildest of irritations? Sure if it happens regularly (and each and every occasion is an honest mistake) I guess it might be a tad wearing but, well, I dunno. Perhaps that's my problem?

C
 

CatmanV2

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Yes, I have a cousin called Shane, and she signs off her emails with "Shane Jones (Mrs)".

In my work (mostly with academics) I like to address people as "Dr" in emails as it avoids gender and they are never insulted, even if it is a bit of a promotion or downgrade.

A professor isn't insulted by being called Dr? Now that would surprise me.

C
 

Oneball

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...as might happen in the above, should, surely, not cause more than the mildest of irritations? Sure if it happens regularly (and each and every occasion is an honest mistake) I guess it might be a tad wearing but, well, I dunno. Perhaps that's my problem?

C

Saves embarrassment of the other person plus makes it easier if you’re meeting someone for the first time to know that theyre

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rather than
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MarkMas

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...as might happen in the above, should, surely, not cause more than the mildest of irritations? Sure if it happens regularly (and each and every occasion is an honest mistake) I guess it might be a tad wearing but, well, I dunno. Perhaps that's my problem?

I think two things that makes a difference between 'tad wearing' and 'massively insulting' are identity and choice. Is it profoundly who you are, and could you change it if you wanted to.

To be attacked for being gay or black or trans is to be attacked for who you are at a profound level. Being ginger or being a misgendered Chris seems slightly less profound. French or posh are even lower down the hierarchy. Being vegan or driving a BMW is near the bottom, as you have chosen to be a forking wierdo.
 

montravia

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Walking into a room in the USA, with Americans anticipating meeting Robin for the first time always made me smile inwardly. The look of shock and confusion
 

CatmanV2

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I think two things that makes a difference between 'tad wearing' and 'massively insulting' are identity and choice. Is it profoundly who you are, and could you change it if you wanted to.

To be attacked for being gay or black or trans is to be attacked for who you are at a profound level. Being ginger or being a misgendered Chris seems slightly less profound. French or posh are even lower down the hierarchy. Being vegan or driving a BMW is near the bottom, as you have chosen to be a forking wierdo.

Well hold up a second, I'm not quite following this now (which is where I tend to fall down)

<quote>Is it profoundly who you are</quote>

This seems absolutely equivalent to this:

<quote>being a misgendered Chris </quote> Like being ginger (or not) or being of a male gender (as in my case) seems things about which I (or Phil) cannot choose.

I mean I'm not saying people shouldn't be insulted. People are insulted by many things. But (perhaps more generally) I often don't understand why. Even less so when it's an honest mistake (people being offended by the Jeremy Hunt spoonerism to, perhaps move this to less contentious ground.

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MarkMas

Chief pedant
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Well hold up a second, I'm not quite following this now (which is where I tend to fall down)

<quote>Is it profoundly who you are</quote>

This seems absolutely equivalent to this:

<quote>being a misgendered Chris </quote> Like being ginger (or not) or being of a male gender (as in my case) seems things about which I (or Phil) cannot choose.

I mean I'm not saying people shouldn't be insulted. People are insulted by many things. But (perhaps more generally) I often don't understand why. Even less so when it's an honest mistake (people being offended by the Jeremy Hunt spoonerism to, perhaps move this to less contentious ground.

C

Well Dr Professor Catman, I'm a bit hazy on this too - just feeling my way towards something...

I guess I am saying that if you are ginger, then, well you are ginger, but you could choose to dye your hair to avoid problems. If you are a 'Chris', you could choose to call yourself Christopher or Christine to avoid problems.

I suppose you could (as many did and still do) pretend not to be gay. But with race it is harder to make choices to avoid discrimination.

I'm imagining some sort of hierarchy of identities or attributes where at one end you really should be considerate and anti-discriminatory, and at the other you can freely say things like, 'I hate him because he is a red-trousered, BMW-driving Everton fan.".
 

RodTungsten

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I have to admit, I find it hard to be bothered by any of it. Want to put your pronouns in an email, whatever. Want to be offended if I get it wrong without ill intent? Shrug.

I am however fully in favour of us all calling each other Doctor.
Well why not? Most GP’s adopt this gratuitous title.
 

Swedish Paul

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Well Dr Professor Catman, I'm a bit hazy on this too - just feeling my way towards something...

I guess I am saying that if you are ginger, then, well you are ginger, but you could choose to dye your hair to avoid problems. If you are a 'Chris', you could choose to call yourself Christopher or Christine to avoid problems.

I suppose you could (as many did and still do) pretend not to be gay. But with race it is harder to make choices to avoid discrimination.

I'm imagining some sort of hierarchy of identities or attributes where at one end you really should be considerate and anti-discriminatory, and at the other you can freely say things like, 'I hate him because he is a red-trousered, BMW-driving Everton fan.".
It could we worse. You might be named Steve.
 

Phil H

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The Hanging Gardens of Babylon didn't exactly hang
The Egyptian Pyramids were built with slave labour/aliens
Stonehenge was built without planning permission, just where it causes bl**dy chaos on the A303.
And yet all three have been revered.

Perception's a funny old thing, innit?
 

CatmanV2

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Well Dr Professor Catman, I'm a bit hazy on this too - just feeling my way towards something...

That makes two of us (at least)

If you are a 'Chris', you could choose to call yourself Christopher or Christine to avoid problems.

I am Chris. And my gender is male. This is where we came in.....

I suppose you could (as many did and still do) pretend not to be gay

I could pretend not to be male, but my essential point is that even is someone misgenders me, or uses the wrong pronouns to refer to me (even deliberately) I can't feel that I'd get too upset.

I'm imagining some sort of hierarchy of identities or attributes where at one end you really should be considerate and anti-discriminatory, and at the other you can freely say things like, 'I hate him because he is a red-trousered, BMW-driving Everton fan.".

Well yes, this seems, on the face of it, reasonable. I rather doubt there would ever be consensus on what the hierarchy could be. I mean, you don't have my lived experience (slightly tongue in cheek. But only slightly)

It is a spectrum, isn't it. I personally feel there are lots of things that people shouldn't get offended about. I'll go back to accidental use of the word **** on R4. Hundreds of people professed to be offended. On what basis? The presenter wasn't calling them a ****. He wasn't even calling Jeremy Hunt a ****. In fact he wasn't calling anyone a ****. But still people felt OK to feel offended.

Similarly we have a spectrum where people that escaped from horrific wars suffer from PTSD then we have someone who's had been accosted in the street (as a not very good example) who, we are asked (told) to accept also has PTSD and therefore the experience of the two is somehow made equivalent.

While it's easy to throw the word snowflake around, I think there's an element of being a functional adult that says 'You should be able to mostly cope with these types of experience'.

Or not

C
 

CatmanV2

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The Hanging Gardens of Babylon didn't exactly hang
The Egyptian Pyramids were built with slave labour/aliens
Stonehenge was built without planning permission, just where it causes bl**dy chaos on the A303.
And yet all three have been revered.

Perception's a funny old thing, innit?
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cf: The Rashomon Effect

C
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
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8,796
The Hanging Gardens of Babylon didn't exactly hang
The Egyptian Pyramids were built with slave labour/aliens
Stonehenge was built without planning permission, just where it causes bl**dy chaos on the A303.
And yet all three have been revered.

Perception's a funny old thing, innit?

And don't forget The Queen built Windsor Castle right under the Heathrow flightpath. And now she complains all the time about the noise (are you sure? - Ed) Madness.
 

Phil H

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And don't forget The Queen built Windsor Castle right under the Heathrow flightpath. And now she complains all the time about the noise (are you sure? - Ed) Madness.
And I'll bet the developers didn't even tell her it's leasehold.......
 

Wack61

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I took the motorhome to York at the weekend , the CAMC site is notoriously difficult to book because it's a 5 minute walk to the city centre , roads were closed due to flood defence work and there was a race meeting on so waze took me through some streets with cars parked either side , it was really narrow and the road was long with cars nose to tail the whole length on both sides

Talk about payback , there was a guy in lycra riding a bike stuck behind me as I crawled down this street , I saw him in the left mirror then right, then left , it was hilarious.
We'd intended to go into the minster but they can **** off with their £12.50 each , that was 3 rounds in the pub.
 
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