My car priorities must change

[philw696]

 

[UlstermanAbroad]

I agree 1000% that one doesn’t need a degree to be succeful/ validated and happy. I am very against the proliferation of ludicrous ‘universities’ and courses on offer and the constant push of this government to get 50% into higher education. It’s costing too much and causing a reduction in standards in all areas. Apprenticeships and other opportunities should be encouraged as a positive option to getting a BA in something worthless from a second rate establishment.
The more hard working , street smart good tradesman, builders and small business owners with common sense we have the better in my opinion.
Rant over!

I've tried hard with every foreign company I've resourced for, going back donkey's years, NOT to make a degree a prerequisite for admin / management or other non-technical roles. My nephew, who is fifteen and is a smart, well-adjusted cookie cannot wait to get out of the exceptionally academically good grammar school that he attends. Same as almost everyone else I ever knew, he wants to get out of Northern Ireland and travel as much as possible. I as 'bad uncle' but favourite uncle, will be encouraging him.
He seems to be genuinely interested in the Royal Navy. Maybe a short service commission or similar. Hopefully that has some technical or similar, transferable skills.
A Chicago Business School professor called Russell Ackoff, advocated for apprenticeships over MBAs and similar, for virtually his whole career I believe. He was one of the most respected organisational theorists of his generation.
Even Ackoff couldn't turn back the tide of the rise of MBA courses. I am very much in Ackoff's corner and my PhD in leadership psychology will end up advocating for everything he advocated for. Properly managed apprenticeships could be one means of not losing all the rare skills practised by lone men in sheds and small businesses. The people we turn to, to fix, replace or refurbish the car parts that aren't made any longer.
Because the British Open is on this week, about a mile from me. I'm meeting even more Americans than usual and they generally despair of their own politics and say wistfully how much they'd love to move to the UK or Ireland. I haven't the heart to tell them that the UK is just as screwed up as the US. Perhaps more so. Let them have their fantasies. It costs nothing.
I believe that the way our politicians are running our country is quite literally insane.
But, whats the alternative.
That's my rant over also. Apologies for the self indulgence

 

[allandwf]

Is it just me, but admin/management appear to have been given zero people skills? If the realised the productivity increase if they had people on side, rather than focus on numbers etc. It just amazes me they can be so blinkered. Red wine rant over lol.

 

[CatmanV2]

Is it just me, but admin/management appear to have been given zero people skills? If the realised the productivity increase if they had people on side, rather than focus on numbers etc. It just amazes me they can be so blinkered. Red wine rant over lol.

There is a fundamental issue in how many many businesses train (or don't) management.

Typically the path into management is:
You're good at this, so we'll make you supervise other people doing it.
You're OK at supervising this, so we'll make you team leader
Your team is doing OK so we'll make you a junior manager.
You're not doing very well as a team manager, but we have a vacancy higher up, and you've got experience so we'll promote you.
Welcome to the level of your incompetence. (cf. The Peter Principle)

Where this fails badly is that the skills that made the person successful in stage one bear probably precisely no relationship to the skills needed for management, and no one (often) gets taught those skill.

I was lucky (apparently). I had a FANTASTIC leader and mentor. Best leader I ever worked with.

Just about everyone else I've worked with in management apparently hasn't/

Interestingly current employer has some quite sensible management training. Sadly a couple of weeks in the classroom over 5 years doesn't really offset the day in / day out challenges....

C

 

[philw696]

From my 40 years on the tools as a mechanic those who are no good end up as Service Managers and even Dealer Principles.
I have seen it all and as I have enough issues managing myself I will stay as I am hands on.
I'm all for good apprenticeships not so much for the modern ones.

 

[2b1ask1]

Agree to some extent Phil about the ‘modern apprenticeship’ as devised by the Labour Gov’t. They are just a source of cheap labour for companies who take on kids for a pittance within a loophole of minimum wage! 24 months later they kick them out with nothing more than a level 2 B-Tec to their name if they are lucky.

That said Alex (23) has done fantastically well, starting an ‘advanced’ apprenticeship after college with an electronics company he left that with a HND, he has got a super job now as a design engineer and the new company are putting him through a degree. He couldn’t be happier.

My youngest (18) has got himself an apprenticeship in the city he starts in September on £22k and will be ‘travelling’ about 1/3 of the time all over the globe!

 

[philw696]

Wow that's fantastic Newton.
I'm probably a little out of touch with the UK to be fair.
Having left school in 78 I know how apprenticeships worked then and also remember the YTS schemes that came out and the poor souls that got dragged into them.

 

[iainw]

There is a fundamental issue in how many many businesses train (or don't) management.

Typically the path into management is:
You're good at this, so we'll make you supervise other people doing it.
You're OK at supervising this, so we'll make you team leader
Your team is doing OK so we'll make you a junior manager.
You're not doing very well as a team manager, but we have a vacancy higher up, and you've got experience so we'll promote you.
Welcome to the level of your incompetence. (cf. The Peter Principle)

Where this fails badly is that the skills that made the person successful in stage one bear probably precisely no relationship to the skills needed for management, and no one (often) gets taught those skill.

I was lucky (apparently). I had a FANTASTIC leader and mentor. Best leader I ever worked with.

Just about everyone else I've worked with in management apparently hasn't/

Interestingly current employer has some quite sensible management training. Sadly a couple of weeks in the classroom over 5 years doesn't really offset the day in / day out challenges....

C

This hits the nail on the head. Explains the complete shambles the NHs is in. I am gobsmacked at the reasons for promotion and job retention amongst managers

 

[lifes2short]

so what was the outcome of public vs state, if your gonna reply please just make it a couple of lines as I lose interest after that

 

[Nibby]

Having left school in 78 I know how apprenticeships worked then and also remember the YTS schemes that came out and the poor souls that got dragged into them.

I did one at the local golf course, £20.50 a week, the greenkeeper was a bully, told him to foxtrot oscar, filled my Fantic Chopper up with a full tank of 20 to 1 mix (meant for the lawnmowers) and took a detour on his finally manicured greens.
You spend a lot of time at work so make sure you enjoy it.

 

[philw696]

I did one at the local golf course, £20.50 a week, the greenkeeper was a bully, told him to foxtrot oscar, filled my Fantic Chopper up with a full tank of 20 to 1 mix (meant for the lawnmowers) and took a detour on his finally manicured greens.
You spend a lot of time at work so make sure you enjoy it.

Full Respect to you mate.
A Fantic Chopper too

 

[Wack61]

From my 40 years on the tools as a mechanic those who are no good end up as Service Managers and even Dealer Principles.
I have seen it all and as I have enough issues managing myself I will stay as I am hands on.
I'm all for good apprenticeships not so much for the modern ones.

A modern apprenticeship is an insult to tradesmen ,for instance,

Are they bringing whole cows in or will they be fully qualified in using the till and shrink wrap machine in a week, doesn't mention going to college, this used to be called a trainee position but everybody needs to be made to feel important now
Apprentice Butcher
This is a chance for an exciting individual to work on a specialised butchery counter at the Hollies farm shop. To develop a career in butchery within the meat industry and customer service skills, whilst receiving on the job training.

 

[Wack61]

I did one at the local golf course, £20.50 a week, the greenkeeper was a bully, told him to foxtrot oscar, filled my Fantic Chopper up with a full tank of 20 to 1 mix (meant for the lawnmowers) and took a detour on his finally manicured greens.
You spend a lot of time at work so make sure you enjoy it.

We got offered work experience for 2 weeks , mine was working in the Co-Op washing machine department

It went like this

Do I have to do it

No you can stay at school

Sounds good to me so I sat in a classroom reading books for 2 weeks while everybody else got treated like slaves and learned nothing

 

[2b1ask1]

Jees! As you say it doesn't even say any actual qualification at the end of it!

Probably qualifies them as the next Brexit minister!

 

[allandwf]

One of my "young ones", 26, didn't know what a countersunk screw was! I was amazed/shocked.

 

[Wack61]

Jees! As you say it doesn't even say any actual qualification at the end of it!

Probably qualifies them as the next Brexit minister!

Only if they went to Eaton and Oxford or Cambridge

I used to sell shoes on Cambridge market in the 80s, loake, barkers etc, mostly seconds but I took orders on some of the smaller manufacturers , Alfred Sargent etc so good quality shoes , it'd take me about an hour to empty the van and set the stall out

one bright spark

asked if I closed for lunch , I thought, yes I put all this back in the van, go walk round town for a bit then come and put it all out again

 

[CatmanV2]

One of my "young ones", 26, didn't know what a countersunk screw was! I was amazed/shocked.

Would it ever have been useful to them?

C

 

[allandwf]

Would it ever have been useful to them?

C

Yes, they are supposed to be able to strip stuff down, fix it, and reinstate it. Although mostly just replace stuff these days. They can do it, clever enough, but not knowing the terms for the nitty gritty bits and bobs I find amazing.

 

[Nibby]

I used to sell shoes on Cambridge market in the 80s, loake, barkers etc, mostly seconds but I took orders on some of the smaller manufacturers , Alfred Sargent etc so good quality shoes , it'd take me about an hour to empty the van and set the stall out

I must of walked past you Wack at some point as I often use to buy off Andy's Records stall on Cambridge market.
Were you living local at the time?

 

[UlstermanAbroad]

My HR career lasted about twenty years and whether while employed, or while consulting in the latter part, the single biggest source of angst amongst managers at all levels, that I witnessed, involved 'employee issues'. Be it sourcing and selecting, development, complicated intra team issues, you name it. Doesn't matter whether it's a local employer or a highly regarded multinational. A lot of my job was getting managers out of the hole they'd dug for themselves and before everything hit the fan causing a sh1t storm of biblical proportions. Managers generally still aren't being developed to lead people, BEFORE they're appointed. As Ackoff advocated.
The utterly dispiriting trend that I've noticed is that people management generally is about as bad as it ever was. Sure, we have a lot of legal protections these days. But, workplace culture is about twenty odd years or more, behind the courts.
Changing mindsets will be the big challenge of the next couple of decades, besides all the technical changes we'll witness.
Happily, it ought to keep me in man toys, until I start to dribble or foam at the mouth and have to be put down