Low(ish) oil pressure.

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Sorry Guys, can I pick your brains?

Symptoms are as follows..

At start-up the engine sounds like a bag of spanners for about 5-10 seconds. After that the engine note changes noticeably within a second or so to a much smoother 'note'.

During engine warm-up the oil pressure gauge is erratic as it drops from 5 bar. This can be felt through the peddle and also heard.

It used to settle at 2.5 bar, but now it settles at about 1.5 / 1.75 bar. No warning light, but not a million miles off it.

Other than the low needle, the car drives perfectly once warmed.

Does this sound like a failing oil pump?
I've heard reference made to a scavenger pump. Is this one and the same thing? Can't find anything on Eurospares.

I can see a logic to there being a short period whilst the oil re-circulates from cold, during which time the car is turning over un or less lubricated, but I don't know whether this is actually the case?

All comments and pointers welcomed as I don't want this to turn into an expensive failure.

Thanks in advance, Emtee.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,301
Sorry Guys, can I pick your brains?

Symptoms are as follows..

At start-up the engine sounds like a bag of spanners for about 5-10 seconds. After that the engine note changes noticeably within a second or so to a much smoother 'note'.

During engine warm-up the oil pressure gauge is erratic as it drops from 5 bar. This can be felt through the peddle and also heard.

It used to settle at 2.5 bar, but now it settles at about 1.5 / 1.75 bar. No warning light, but not a million miles off it.

Other than the low needle, the car drives perfectly once warmed.

Does this sound like a failing oil pump?
I've heard reference made to a scavenger pump. Is this one and the same thing? Can't find anything on Eurospares.

I can see a logic to there being a short period whilst the oil re-circulates from cold, during which time the car is turning over un or less lubricated, but I don't know whether this is actually the case?

All comments and pointers welcomed as I don't want this to turn into an expensive failure.

Thanks in advance, Emtee.

Myles , far be from me to teach you to suck eggs, but it sounds like your a little low on oil , have you checked and re checked it running and on a dead flat surface , these cars only have to be half a litre under to cause the oil pressure to drop below 2.5 bar , worth a re check and possible top up , if you add a little at a time and watch the gauge to see if it stays more constant

regards loz
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Hi Loz, Certainly not teaching me to suck eggs, all comments welcomed. Had a complete oil change at Shiltech a matter of weeks ago and I've checked the oil repeatedly since then both engine off and running on a level surface. I've been lead to believe that off readings are untrustworthy, but it was showing on the high side, but under the max on the stick. Getting readings whilst running has been more difficult as the level isn't clear or distinct, but it looks about centre between the min and max.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,301
Providing its under max i would add some more, but in small amounts say 1/4 of a cupfull at a time , and then check the gauge to see if ts creep up this will take around 2-3 mins by the time its circulated , in total add no more than half a litre , if its still under the 2.5 then an indie check is advised , overfill can be just as damaging as running with low oil sometimes , except it damages the seals, the good thing about the 4200 and Gransports is that its easier to take some out than the 3200's

The fact that its sounds like you have top end rattle momentarily suggests to me its below level and taking longer to get up there

regards loz
 
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Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
It was under the max (just) with engine off, so I'll add a little more tomorrow. The potential over-fill damage was one of the reasons I didn't want to go mad with the oil before asking the question. Thanks Loz.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,301
It was under the max (just) with engine off, so I'll add a little more tomorrow. The potential over-fill damage was one of the reasons I didn't want to go mad with the oil before asking the question. Thanks Loz.

Keep us posted myles how you get on


regards loz
 

Gullible

New Member
Messages
732
Probably not relevant, but has the problem manifest since the oil change from shiltech?
If so they may have used the wrong grade oil or done something else.
Meridien have had a few cars with similar faults if Shell 5/40 full synthetic is not used or a non genuine filter and apparently this is a common fault and almost always relates to one or both of these.
I am not sure of the relevance but i tend to believe an engine flush every 3 years is a good thing to do and is not expensive.
The problem with some garagees is that they order oil by the 45 gallon drum and if they have used up the last of a particular oil then they may just opt for a "similar alternative".
My last oil change (before the Carrs One) was done with Mobil One 0w/40.Not saying this had any adverse effect but it could have.
In traffic and on tickover my oil is close to 5 bar
 

Gullible

New Member
Messages
732
4200 oil checks
Put the vehicle on a flat surface, remove the dipstick whilst the engine is still running and check the level i am told.
maybe relevant?
 

Predator

New Member
Messages
54
4200 oil checks
Put the vehicle on a flat surface, remove the dipstick whilst the engine is still running and check the level i am told.
maybe relevant?

That's exactly how I was told to check the oil, by Autoficcina.

John
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,593
Sounds like wrong grade of oil to me also, but it is a little concerning and would not drive it till its been fully checked. It could just be a sh@gged oil sender.

Does the oil gauge dance and flip around fast or is it more of a gradual movement. Fast flipping or dancing of the needle indicated an electrical fault with the sender. More gradual movement and with the revs indicated something more serious.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,301
My last oil change (before the Carrs One) was done with Mobil One 0w/40.Not saying this had any adverse effect but it could have.
In traffic and on tickover my oil is close to 5 bar


That doesn't seem normal to me Adam, Most cars run a tad over 2.5 bar at warm idle and is norm for the 4200 or Gransports correct grade is 5w 40 fully synthetic for the Gransports Shell helix is advised , at 1200 revs bang on 5 bar

I have used Selenia racing 5w 40 fully synthetic in the 4200 with no adverse effects and always 5 bar above 1200 revs


regards loz
 

Gullible

New Member
Messages
732
forgot to say on ahot day in heavy traffic the cars pressure gets around 4-5 bar and then when i start to drive off it gets to middling.
Its not unusual but the fans seem to kick in very fast even when the car is coldish.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,301
forgot to say on ahot day in heavy traffic the cars pressure gets around 4-5 bar and then when i start to drive off it gets to middling.
Its not unusual but the fans seem to kick in very fast even when the car is coldish.


Unfortunately my exhaust wont let me hear the fans cut in , thats if they do heheh wondered why my temperature was hititing 190 hehe


regards loz
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,593
Adam, I was advised not to use Mobil, you should only ever use the correct Shell grade. At idle, you should be showing 2.4-2.6 bar, above 1800/2000rpm, it should be hard over on 5 bar.

Mine used to hang around the 4 bar mark sometimes at idle, then I had my oil sender changed and all is back to normal.
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Thanks for the comments Gents. To recap. Oil level checked regularly over the past weeks. Reading high on the stick (but not over the max) with engine off (incorrect method) and about middle with engine at warm idle on level surface (correct method but difficult to read accurately) reading about 1.75 at warm idle and a full 5 bar under any load.

Matt, thanks for the pointer on the sender, yes the guage is erratic as it drops from 5 bar to 1.75 bar during warm-up. I'm taking it over to Shiltech in the next hour so we'll see.

Cheers, Emtee.
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,593
Sounds like oil sender, the only thing I dont like the sound of is the noisy top end. If you use the wrong grade of oil or your oil is shredded, the top end will go tapaty tap on start up but will disappear after 2 or 3 seconds.

If they scratch their heads, its oil and filter change first, then the sender, then panic.

There may be an oil pressure relief valve that is not working correctly.
 

Gullible

New Member
Messages
732
Adam, I was advised not to use Mobil, you should only ever use the correct Shell grade. At idle, you should be showing 2.4-2.6 bar, above 1800/2000rpm, it should be hard over on 5 bar.

Mine used to hang around the 4 bar mark sometimes at idle, then I had my oil sender changed and all is back to normal.

I just got back from a road trip and i was getting confused.
Its around 3-4 on tickover and goes up to 5 on launch.
It may be worth changing this oil sender,what did it cost?
 

Emtee

New Member
Messages
8,446
Progress report after taking the car to Shiltech..

First things first, Geoff is using Valvoline synpower 5W40. He seems quite happy to stand by it. I guess you could say 'well he would do wouldn't he', but although only a recent Maserati indi', he's been looking after Ferrari for a long time and has a good reputation and unlike myself he actually does know what goes on under the bonnet, so I'm happy to take him at his recommendation.

With engine warm and running it took about three quarters of a litre to get it spot on the max mark, if anything just very slightly over, so given that the specification states 1 litre between min and max on the dipstick, it was well within the acceptable range, but if anything just below the mid-point before the top-up.

On hearing of the clatter on start-up, Geoff commented straightaway that this is possible with a dry-sump engine whilst the scavenger grabs the oil and gets it up into the engine. As it's now brimming, I'll see whether this improves it over the next few days.

On hearing of the erratic pressure gauge, a quick confirmation from Stuart pointed them both to the sender, which Stuart had come across before on Maserati, and Geoff has experienced before on Ferrari. Again I'll keep an eye on this over the coming days to see whether the oil top-up has any effect.

The sender may also be the only reason for the low pressure reading. I haven't driven the car enough to see whether this has improved since the top up, but given the relatively small volume added, I suspect the effect will be minimal if there is any.

So all in all I left with a 'watching brief' rather than any concrete resolution, but re-assured nonetheless.

Changing the sender is between 2 and 3 hours labour, but if it gets no worse over the coming weeks I'll wait until my clutch change after Llandow, when it'll be easier to get at.

By the way, Geoff was at Standford Hall on Sunday with some of his Fezza's. Did anyone chat to him? He's also planning to be at Cliveden House, hopefully with a Maser' or two.

He also had a lovely Verdi Goodwood 3200 with tan interior in for post purchase fettling prior to shipping over to its new owner in France (ring any bells to anyone?). It'd just been detailed by D2detail, who maybe aren't in the supercar league, but their prices are darn good and they're literally just around the corner, so I'll be making contact with them. Certainly they'd made a great job of the 3200. Geoff also pointed me to Stallion Motors in Nottingham for sorting out my many stone chips and rust spots, so a couple of good contacts for the future.
 
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