HR Experts

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,037
More common it isn't redundancy but more a legal agreed separation especially if you have worked for them for a long time. Companies rather go down that route to avoid any future unfair dismissal comebacks.
Basically we will pay you X if you sign this and leave at the end of the month.
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,899
More common it isn't redundancy but more a legal agreed separation especially if you have worked for them for a long time. Companies rather go down that route to avoid any future unfair dismissal comebacks.
Basically we will pay you X if you sign this and leave at the end of the month.

Yes, although if it is expressed as a redundancy, it can have tax advantages for the employee, and can also sound like a better story - "My position was eliminated" is more plausible to a future employer than "I left because we mutually agreed I should leave."
 

Scaf

Member
Messages
6,555
Glad to hear you have hooked up with someone to give you advice, the SM community does seem to have an expert for every occasion.

In my experience it good to consider not only what employment law dictates, but also the individual company policy - if a company fails to follow their own policy, it can often give the employee an advantage.
 
Last edited:

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,037
If say whole company redundancy or a department redundancy the normal redundancy procedures. But if a sole redundancy in a larger company the company has to be very careful to avoid any comebacks.
Don't know the circumstances in this case but a legal separation is just another option if agreeable for both parties, with the payment normally tax free. The employer also normally pays an amount for your independent legal advise.
 

Ewan

Member
Messages
6,803
Think long term. Winning a battle over redundancy pay but then loosing the war (by not getting a reference, or making yourself less employable in the future) isn’t sensible. Best to take appropriate legal advice and be reasonable with your demands. Try to leave on good terms, as you never know who you might bump into again if you stay working in the same industry.
 
Messages
1,121
If say whole company redundancy or a department redundancy the normal redundancy procedures. But if a sole redundancy in a larger company the company has to be very careful to avoid any comebacks.
Don't know the circumstances in this case but a legal separation is just another option if agreeable for both parties, with the payment normally tax free. The employer also normally pays an amount for your independent legal advise.
It is not normal practice for an employer to pay anything for an employee to take independent legal advice (save in one special situation).

Secondly, an employer does not have to pay anything over and above (a) the required legal minimum redundancy pay or (b) the company's redundancy terms and comply with the required Notice Period.

A company can make a fair dismissal through redundancy if it can show the need for the job has disapoeared, its location has changed, or it can be merged into another role and then simply restructure the organisation or a part of it.

There is more protection in mass redundancies as they may involve a union negotiation.

The employer invariably wins every time when an employee takes counsel from friends thinking they have x, y, z rights and to fight. I have dismissed many staff - with never a comeback despite heavy threats to take the matter to court.

Reason? A (good, smart) company takes legal advice BEFORE it even decides to get rid of staff and how to do it without a legal challenge. I never took 100% of advice from HR and always took legal counsel before arriving at the decision snd how to do it ckeanly.

The staff being dismissed have incurred hefty legal bills thst got them nowhere. Beware of legal advice thst says "you have a case" when in reality you don't. A good solicitor is the one who says "you are not gonna benefit by contesting the decision,. The the cost to litigate is extremely expensive for marginal improvement of the offer (if any at all) and you may have to meet their legal costs as well"

Not knowing the specifics, it appears the OP is facing loss of his job. Making an agreement to part amicably in law (compromise) is under the control of the employer if it thinks there may be an unfair dismissal claim to be pursued AND IF IT THINKS ON THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITY such a claim may win or if the claim has little chance of winning but will incur costs to defend. An offer to go quietly for x monies has no chance of being accepted if the company sees no risks of contest or costs to defend. Why should it?

As for tax advice etc. that is in the distance. First establish if the dismissal is fair or contestable.

My honest advice is take the offer as per contractual terns, 99% of times, it is fair in the eyes of the law and courts.

I have been doing this in a corporate life and not one has ever made a claim (though many have made heat of the moment threats to take us to court) and in performance related issurs not one has ever won against me even with having a solicitor present in the poor-performance procedure discussions.

Not what anyone wsnts to hear possibly, but practical reality - certainly in 'executive level' dismissals. Laying off masses on a shop floor is a different (arbitration) process that usually results in the employer still achieving layoffs despite union ferocity so long as process is complied and the employer sets out the grounds for dismissal which rarely hold up to legal challenge.

There we have it. The law is an a$$.

Take the money and move on is the usual outcome in most cases
 
Last edited:

Keano

Member
Messages
287
Went through his a few years back and as well as having someone to bounce your pre-conceptions with, a good specialist lawyer will ensure you cover all bases and do not walk yourself into a hole. There are ways to maximise the payout or how it is paid out such as paying into a pension as well as the benefits that come from having a 3rd party conduct the communications.

A good employment lawyer is also useful for your new contract on the way into a company as that is where the ground rules are set for your exit later. Once on board Interim share options grants are often where employers like to slot in non-compete clauses for example as you are already onboard at that stage so less likely to push back on something when they are giving you options which is discretionary. I used https://pjhlaw.co.uk/ and they have a weekly blog which is interesting.
 
Messages
1,121
Went through his a few years back and as well as having someone to bounce your pre-conceptions with, a good specialist lawyer will ensure you cover all bases and do not walk yourself into a hole. There are ways to maximise the payout or how it is paid out such as paying into a pension as well as the benefits that come from having a 3rd party conduct the communications.

A good employment lawyer is also useful for your new contract on the way into a company as that is where the ground rules are set for your exit later. Once on board Interim share options grants are often where employers like to slot in non-compete clauses for example as you are already onboard at that stage so less likely to push back on something when they are giving you options which is discretionary. I used https://pjhlaw.co.uk/ and they have a weekly blog which is interesting.
Your post is fair, but I disagree with the last part of the first paragraph. Having a lawyer conduct your communications is very likely to put an iron curtain between you and your employer and the line manager managing the dismissal. Far better that the employee conducts the communication in my view and experience. Anyone that got a lawyer to write to me and the company immediately resulted in me shutting down all corridors of dialogue and handing over to our considerable team of lawyers to reply to the employee's solicitor. Absolutely nothing above the contractual entitlement was given, nobody got anything more such as severance pay tax free or paid into pension and no negotiated reference. The employee ended up with legal costs but nothing more than contractual entitlement. This is because I already took advice before I made the first move - which is something many employees underestimate.

Take legal counsel but do the negotiations yourself would always be my advice - until s stage is reached where it has to be lawyer to lawyer. By then it is costly and rarely beneficial for the dismissed employee. Reason? Our company had teams of lawyers and accountants on fixed salaries. They are not paid on time. The employee is being billed by time by his lawyer who has a perverse incentive to prolong the 'circus of negotiations'. We could spin it out for months and the employee by then has racked up huge legal costs with his lawyers.

Pick your battles carefully!

On the point of lawyers helping with the next employment contract, some merit in that. But unless you are at senior level the room to negotiate entry terms is limited or if you have unique skills and experience in short supply. Many employers have HR policies and procedures that make it difficult if not impossible to negotiate many contractual aspects. Senior level usually has different HR policies and procedures that give some scope to negotiate. In well over 90% of cases I'd doubt a lawyer could make a huge difference on a 'hello' contract. But a lawyer will help to understand the detail of a new employment ('hello') contract.

Companies have policies and procedures for a reason - to stop a free-for-all money grab across employees.
 
Last edited:

Keano

Member
Messages
287
Your post is fair, but I disagree with the last part of the first paragraph. Having a lawyer conduct your communications is very likely to put an iron curtain between you and your employer and the line manager managing the dismissal. Far better that the employee conducts the communication in my view and experience. Anyone that got a lawyer to write to me and the company immediately resulted in me shutting down all corridors of dialogue and handing over to our considerable team of lawyers to reply to the employee's solicitor. Absolutely nothing above the contractual entitlement was given, nobody got anything more such as severance pay tax free or paid into pension and no negotiated reference. The employee ended up with legal costs but nothing more than contractual entitlement. This is because I already took advice before I made the first move - which is something many employees underestimate.

Take legal counsel but do the negotiations yourself would always be my advice - until s stage is reached where it has to be lawyer to lawyer. By then it is costly and rarely beneficial for the dismissed employee. Reason? Our company had teams of lawyers and accountants on fixed salaries. They are not paid on time. The employee is being billed by time by his lawyer who has a perverse incentive to prolong the 'circus of negotiations'. We could spin it out for months and the employee by then has racked up huge legal costs with his lawyers.

Pick your battles carefully!

On the point of lawyers helping with the next employment contract, some merit in that. But unless you are at senior level the room to negotiate entry terms is limited or if you have unique skills and experience in short supply. Many employers have HR policies and procedures that make it difficult if not impossible to negotiate many contractual aspects. Senior level usually has different HR policies and procedures that give some scope to negotiate. In well over 90% of cases I'd doubt a lawyer could make a huge difference on a 'hello' contract. But a lawyer will help to understand the detail of a new employment ('hello') contract.

Companies have policies and procedures for a reason - to stop a free-for-all money grab across employees.

On the exit I had to use a lawyer as it related to a compromise agreement and by law i was required to have counsel which the company paid for up to £500. It was better for them to communicate as the employer was already lawyered up and i preferred that separation. On exposure to costs they typically charge a base fee which is not large and then a % of any increment limiting exposure.

On the entry side i discussed directly with the new employer but used the same firm to review the contract and thereby protect myself later.
 

RobinL

Member
Messages
456
Cheshire Maserati is on the money with his advice. Assuming your company is a fairly large affair with an HR department then they will have undertaken basic due diligence and what they offer is pretty much what you will get. Expect reasonable notice of redundancy, usually one pay cycle or as otherwise agreed in your contract. Payout would again be as per company policy which they would explain, holiday pay, pension arears etc are all fairly straight forwards.
Always ask for a written letter stating redundancy, always avoid a mutual agreement to separate ask for a written reference too.
Only point of caution is to be wary of any non competition or gagging statements which may effectively bar you from working for, or in competition. If you quit it's fair enough to accept them, if you are made redundant then non competition clauses should be fully paid as part of the deal (gardening leave!). Hopefully it won't come to that!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,899
It is not normal practice for an employer to pay anything for an employee to take independent legal advice (save in one special situation)......

I have signed compromise agreements as a departing (senior) employee 5 times in my career (long stories all). On three occasions, the employer insisted that I have legal advice and offered to pay (to protect them from accusations of conning me, I suppose), on the other two, I got legal advice, and one employer happily paid and the other did not. Most times the legal advice was only about £500. The last one, which got very silly, my costs were approaching £10k, but the payout in contention was much more than that, so it was kinda worth it.
 

EnzoMC

Member
Messages
1,999
cheshiremaserati - nice post even if abit on the employer's side. We have a great redundancy package in our contract but had a few staff being asked to leave with minimum payout, the letter wasn't even put as redundancy. Not sure how business can get away with things like this when in a contract
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,734
Oh dear. I thought this would happen.

Folks, it really is not a serious situation. The worst outcome will be I do a job I'm not entirely happy with for a while while I find a job I am really happy with. This is hardly TEOTWAWKI

There are at least 2 better outcomes possible at this point, so let's not argue? :D

C
 
Messages
1,121
I have signed compromise agreements as a departing (senior) employee 5 times in my career (long stories all). On three occasions, the employer insisted that I have legal advice and offered to pay (to protect them from accusations of conning me, I suppose), on the other two, I got legal advice, and one employer happily paid and the other did not. Most times the legal advice was only about £500. The last one, which got very silly, my costs were approaching £10k, but the payout in contention was much more than that, so it was kinda worth it.
Note I stated "save for one special situation" and that is where an employer/employee engage in a compromise agreement where thd employer will pay a small sum for employee to seek independent advice - a contractual obligation in a compromise agreement. Note that a compromise agreement has a very specific legal definition that is not open to interpretation
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,734
No this is:


You're a resourceful chap so que será, será ….

Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será
What will be, will be.

When I was just a little girl, I asked my mother 'What shall I be? Will I be pretty, will I be rich?" Here's what she said to me...

Get off your **** and find something you enjoy doing. Even better if you're a little more competent than those around you :)

C
 
Messages
1,121
cheshiremaserati - nice post even if abit on the employer's side. We have a great redundancy package in our contract but had a few staff being asked to leave with minimum payout, the letter wasn't even put as redundancy. Not sure how business can get away with things like this when in a contract
An employers side is always underestimated. It needs to be stated before the frenzy of people egging someone on that they have a case. Sadly, contracts of employment, redundancy terms and severance pay, notice periods are all so variable. Everything depends on the contract of employment in cases of redundancy or redeployment and people (a) rarely share contracts in public and (b) often have less than complete knowledge of their emoloymeng contract. I have done the laying off people, restructuring, moving people into cul-de-sac roles as well as advised people informally when they face such situations. There is no right or wrong but there is an informed and an uninformed approach for such people in these situations. My corporate life in a MNC was a very large HR process-ridden organisation with layers of accountants and lawyers. People had lityle to no chance of getting better or more than their contractual entitlement. The only choice was usually if they were deemed "a good leaver" or otherwise. The former had some fringe benefits such as outplacement support and perhaps a neutral reference confirming period of employment and if it was resignation or dismissal through compulsory or voluntary redundancy. Often the company stated it was not policy to provide a reference and confirmed the individual did have a period of employment with us.
 

EnzoMC

Member
Messages
1,999
Oh dear. I thought this would happen.

Folks, it really is not a serious situation. The worst outcome will be I do a job I'm not entirely happy with for a while while I find a job I am really happy with. This is hardly TEOTWAWKI

There are at least 2 better outcomes possible at this point, so let's not argue? :D

C

its never a good thing to be going through and like most just wishing you well

maybe time for a change of job, work with Matt as junior mechanic ;)