Hope for ICE?

rossyl

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The fixation with Electrifying everything is extremely short sighted.

Hydrogen is already being looked at to replace gas in our boilers, there's a pilot study in Fife right now.

People also seem to focus on just fuel (cars and planes) they don't realise how carbon intensive other items are - such as steel.

Nor is there any appreciation that oil does a lot more than just fuel cars - petrochemicals are one of the building blocks of modern life.
 

safrane

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presenty at c£4.00 per ltr before tax its not a viable option for most... and if Gov tax in the same way as fuel today it would be over £10.00 per litre and close to a grand to fill up... game for those far richer than I.
 

midlifecrisis

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I didn't think that explained the current sources of fuel sufficiently, so here goes...

First generation biofuels, are made from sugar, starch or vegetable oil from specifcally grown crops. The obvious disadvantage is the crop space that should be used for food crops.
Second generation include wood, organic waste, food waste and specific biomass crops, i.e non food crops whereby they chemically treat the source in order to produce the hydrocarbons.
Third generation biofuels use specially engineered crops such as algae as the energy source.


All three will have a future, food crops in countries where food is not scarce will be used along with waste products as well as algae-bloom factories. They won't be used only in cars with ICE but electricity power plants, aircraft and ships. There will be a masive demand as we move from fossil fuels.
 
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GTVGEOFF

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There was an interview with Ross Braun a while ago, his thoughts were that this is the way to go synthetic was the future. And he is no fool.
 

davy83

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While this is great and i am certain it will prolong ICE use for a while its still burning carbon based fuel, and we have kind of established that this screws up the air we breathe and makes the weather unsuitable for humans. And yes the real discussion is where we get energy from, as long as we have coal and gas power stations the overall solution will not work. and yes there are huge problems in every aspect of modern life, shipping is a massive problem, air transport, steel, and concrete manufacture, but we need to deal with all of it rather than use the scale of the problem as an excuse.
And yes I work in the oil business, and I still enjoy driving my 3200 (when it works!), but I am under no illusion that the status quo can some how be made to work. synth fuels are to my understanding a stop gap not a solution.
 

CatmanV2

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burning carbon based fuel, and we have kind of established that this screws up the air we breathe

It only screws it up due to the fact the carbon in fossil fuels has been locked out of the atmosphere for millennia. 'Synthetic' fuels have a far faster cycle i.e. your plant / algae grabs CO2 out of the atmosphere this week and you release it back into the atmosphere next week. So there is no net increase in atmospheric CO2. Which is what causes many of our current issues. And in fact by moving other energy sources (say gas powered power generation) to bio-fuels you could reduce the CO2 increase still further.

But working in oil and gas I'm happy to bow to your greater knowledge.

C
 

rossyl

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While this is great and i am certain it will prolong ICE use for a while its still burning carbon based fuel, and we have kind of established that this screws up the air we breathe and makes the weather unsuitable for humans.
I agree with a lot of what you've written, but from a differing perspective....

I view electric cars in the exact same light. They move the pollution from our streets to somewhere else in the world.

Batteries are inherently bad for our environment. Whilst they are trying to create new tech, they still use Rare Earths dug up in countries where human rights, workers rights and welfare states do not exist and democracy is questionable.

Batteries storing power from renewables is also questionable. Firstly for the same reason as above, in their production, but also in keeping them charged. Trying using a battery in northern Scandinavia at present, the cold is a detriment to its ability to store power. You could keep it warm, but then that is a complete waste of power.

We've not even discussed recycling them and the energy involved in that.

I truly think Hydrogen for cars is the answer. Electric Cars unfortunately will force us to change technology, for something only marginally better that will delay us getting to hydrogen.

And yes the real discussion is where we get energy from, as long as we have coal and gas power stations the overall solution will not work. and yes there are huge problems in every aspect of modern life, shipping is a massive problem, air transport, steel, and concrete manufacture, but we need to deal with all of it rather than use the scale of the problem as an excuse.

Shipping is already using LNG, whilst it is technically a fossil fuel, it is very very clean. That needs to be more widespread. But they are already looking at other options, including hydrogen.

Renewables and batteries can however result in this - the usual price for a MWh of electricity is about £50 this time of year. Due to our shift to Renewables in the UK, a day that saw relatively calm winds resulted in that price spiking to £4,000 a MWh.

This has always been the issue with Renewables, their unpredictability when you need them most. Batteries seem to be a environmentally detrimental way to solve it.
 

hashluck

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1,515
Interesting article in the FT this week by Dr. Andy Palmer saying that the politicians should stay out of it, trying to steer us one way or the other with incentives (as they did in such a blinkered way with diesel and now with EV) and let the scientists and engineers figure out the best way to a greener planet, which may include something we have not even heard of or thought of yet. We saw what can be done with the COVID vaccines with a similar approach.
 

rossyl

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Interesting article in the FT this week by Dr. Andy Palmer saying that the politicians should stay out of it, trying to steer us one way or the other with incentives (as they did in such a blinkered way with diesel and now with EV) and let the scientists and engineers figure out the best way to a greener planet, which may include something we have not even heard of or thought of yet. We saw what can be done with the COVID vaccines with a similar approach.
Agreed.

A generic tax incentive for Green Tech, rather than specific for Wind/EV etc.

When Govts do the hokey cokey, one foot in, one foot out, the end result is a loss of faith and loss of expertise.

[URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-business-34357804[/URL]"]www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-business-34357804[/URL]

2015 Osbourne removed the grant for Carbon Capture, completely last minute. Announced in the budget, no forewarning.

The result - the UK lag behind other parts of the globe in carbon capture. We could've been a world leader, instead we are very far from it and now playing catch up.
 

davy83

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2,809
But working in oil and gas I'm happy to bow to your greater knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

I should perhaps clarify that I am not involved in oilfield strategy in any way I make electronics, so have no idea where the industry is going any more than anyone else.
 

Hawk13

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FIFTY

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This is from the same company found guilty of misrepresenting diesel emissions and who have a vested interest in promulgating pro ICE propaganda ;)

Mercedes and Mitsubishi have their own diesel scandals. Creating software to cheat an emissions test seems irrelevant if synthetic fuel does not pollute the atmosphere.

There are 1.4 billion ICE cars on the road today and will continue to manufacture for at least 10-15 years... They will not vanish into thin air and be replaced by battery cell vehicles
 

Hawk13

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Mercedes and Mitsubishi have their own diesel scandals. Creating software to cheat an emissions test seems irrelevant if synthetic fuel does not pollute the atmosphere.

There are 1.4 billion ICE cars on the road today and will continue to manufacture for at least 10-15 years... They will not vanish into thin air and be replaced by battery cell vehicles

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying or even with what Porsche are saying .. the point I was trying to make is that I would prefer it to be coming from a more credible and independent source.
 

FIFTY

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I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying or even with what Porsche are saying .. the point I was trying to make is that I would prefer it to be coming from a more credible and independent source.

The proof will be in the investment that goes into these fuels. Oil producing countries should be piling money into renewable fuels or their state's finances will be in ruins when the wells run dry

KSA is already on it apparently: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201112-the-green-hydrogen-revolution-in-renewable-energy