HIGH OIL LEAKAGE WITH CLUTCH SV TRIGGERED - F1 transmission

[dxxxxxxx]

Hi guys,

I’m trying to diagnose an issue with the F1 transmission on my Maserati GranTurismo and would really appreciate some advice from anyone familiar with the F1 system.

The main issue happens when pulling away from a standstill. If I apply the throttle normally, the car starts to move, but shortly after — usually around 1,000–1,500 rpm — the revs briefly drop slightly or stop then continues accelerating normally. It feels almost as if the clutch engagement is slow after the car has already started moving. Interestingly, if I apply a very small amount of throttle first and let the car creep/pre-engage the clutch for about 0.5–1 second, then accelerate normally, the take-off is usually very smooth.


Once the car is moving, everything is pretty much normal. Gear changes are fine, no major shifting issues, and the car is completely driveable.

I connected a diagnostic tool and noticed something that doesn’t look right:

• Oil leakage with clutch solenoid valve NOT triggered: around 6.6 cc/min
• Oil leakage with clutch solenoid valve triggered: usually around 70–90 cc/min
• Sometimes when the car is cold, the triggered leakage shows over 100 cc/min
• After driving and warming the car up, it can drop back to around 70+ cc/min

According to the Maserati technical information I found, internal solenoid leakage above 30 cc/min, together with engagement/selection problems, can indicate a faulty solenoid valve?

What could cause such high leakage only when the clutch solenoid is triggered, while the non-triggered value is normal?

What would you recommend checking or repairing first?

• What damage can it cause?
• How difficult is the repair DIY?
• Roughly what would a Maserati dealer or specialist charge?

Autocalibrated closed clutch value : 21.9
NEW closed clutch value: 20.8
PIS 4.19 but I changed it to 4.20

No error code.

Thank you!!!!

 

[mjheathcote]

The pulling away issue I've always thought was too wide a PIS value. I don't think this is related to any solenoid leakage issues, that would effect general operation of the F1 System.

 

[dxxxxxxx]

The pulling away issue I've always thought was too wide a PIS value. I don't think this is related to any solenoid leakage issues, that would effect general operation of the F1 System.

Thank you. I’ve tried adjusting the PIS to 3.9, but the take off is still not smooth.

Do you know how the solenoid leakage issue is normally repaired? Is it a relatively easy DIY job, or would I need a Maserati/Ferrari specialist? Also, roughly how much would this repair usually cost?

 

[mjheathcote]

Thank you. I’ve tried adjusting the PIS to 3.9, but the take off is still not smooth.

Do you know how the solenoid leakage issue is normally repaired? Is it a relatively easy DIY job, or would I need a Maserati/Ferrari specialist? Also, roughly how much would this repair usually cost?

I believe anything to do with the solenoids is not really an easy DIY job unfortunately.

 

[dxxxxxxx]

I believe anything to do with the solenoids is not really an easy DIY job unfortunately.

Lol, what do you think the repair would roughly cost?


I’m starting to regret selling my ZF car and switching to the F1 now

 

[philw696]

Lol, what do you think the repair would roughly cost?


I’m starting to regret selling my ZF car and switching to the F1 now

Where are you located as there's a few Specialists around that will sort it.
Don't give up as the F1 when Well set up is a Great and Very Reliable system.

 

[dxxxxxxx]

Where are you located as there's a few Specialists around that will sort it.
Don't give up as the F1 when Well set up is a Great and Very Reliable system.

Unfortunately, I’m in Australia, and it’s pretty hard to find someone who really knows these cars and the F1 system.

 

[Gp79]

The leakage rate on my GS is over 100cc/min (clutch solenoid valve triggered) It has been like this for over 5 years with no issues apart from the pump runs more than it should when engine is running.
I keep meaning to replace the clutch solenoid valve which after reading various documents / forum posts looks the likely culprit. Hopefully this winter I’ll have the time.

 

[strictly]

Hi guys,

I’m trying to diagnose an issue with the F1 transmission on my Maserati GranTurismo and would really appreciate some advice from anyone familiar with the F1 system.

The main issue happens when pulling away from a standstill. If I apply the throttle normally, the car starts to move, but shortly after — usually around 1,000–1,500 rpm — the revs briefly drop slightly or stop then continues accelerating normally. It feels almost as if the clutch engagement is slow after the car has already started moving. Interestingly, if I apply a very small amount of throttle first and let the car creep/pre-engage the clutch for about 0.5–1 second, then accelerate normally, the take-off is usually very smooth.


Once the car is moving, everything is pretty much normal. Gear changes are fine, no major shifting issues, and the car is completely driveable.

I connected a diagnostic tool and noticed something that doesn’t look right:

• Oil leakage with clutch solenoid valve NOT triggered: around 6.6 cc/min
• Oil leakage with clutch solenoid valve triggered: usually around 70–90 cc/min
• Sometimes when the car is cold, the triggered leakage shows over 100 cc/min
• After driving and warming the car up, it can drop back to around 70+ cc/min

According to the Maserati technical information I found, internal solenoid leakage above 30 cc/min, together with engagement/selection problems, can indicate a faulty solenoid valve?

What could cause such high leakage only when the clutch solenoid is triggered, while the non-triggered value is normal?

What would you recommend checking or repairing first?

• What damage can it cause?
• How difficult is the repair DIY?
• Roughly what would a Maserati dealer or specialist charge?

Autocalibrated closed clutch value : 21.9
NEW closed clutch value: 20.8
PIS 4.19 but I changed it to 4.20

No error code.

Thank you!!!!

Im far from an expert (bottom end in fact) but I do also have a MC shift F1 GT and eager to learn when I can.

It sounds like you already have a copy of maserati advanced electronics 1? See screen shots.

If not this technical resource is a real treasure trove. Check out the maserati academy folder and separately the m145 folder. There is a F1 section there.

https://drive.google.com/drive/fold...LMWh1aXc?resourcekey=0-BtbXAWXhAWrQS8cgCEkn8g

For the pis. 4.19 is optimum as far as I know. Did you follow the procedure on page 158 before and during? I would like to adjust the pis on my car so im keen to understand from others what to do.

I see where the 30 cc leakage is in AE1, did you check the pump timing as it says on the page?

There are quite alot of F1 specialists around the world, interestingly reading on craig-waterman.com, the clutch often gets the blame when in fact it is hydraulic related.

 

[dxxxxxxx]

The leakage rate on my GS is over 100cc/min (clutch solenoid valve triggered) It has been like this for over 5 years with no issues apart from the pump runs more than it should when engine is running.
I keep meaning to replace the clutch solenoid valve which after reading various documents / forum posts looks the likely culprit. Hopefully this winter I’ll have the time.

For now, I can hear the F1 pump running quite frequently, roughly every 15–20 seconds.

I’m a bit worried that if I leave it like this, it could eventually burn out the pump or damage the actuator. From what I understand, the F1 hydraulic system/actuator is more fragile than the gearbox itself, and very expensive to fix or replace.

 

[dxxxxxxx]

Im far from an expert (bottom end in fact) but I do also have a MC shift F1 GT and eager to learn when I can.

It sounds like you already have a copy of maserati advanced electronics 1? See screen shots.

If not this technical resource is a real treasure trove. Check out the maserati academy folder and separately the m145 folder. There is a F1 section there.

https://drive.google.com/drive/fold...LMWh1aXc?resourcekey=0-BtbXAWXhAWrQS8cgCEkn8g

For the pis. 4.19 is optimum as far as I know. Did you follow the procedure on page 158 before and during? I would like to adjust the pis on my car so im keen to understand from others what to do.

I see where the 30 cc leakage is in AE1, did you check the pump timing as it says on the page?

There are quite alot of F1 specialists around the world, interestingly reading on craig-waterman.com, the clutch often gets the blame when in fact it is hydraulic related.

When adjusting the PIS, I use an X431 with an internet connection. Without internet, I can’t access the PIS adjustment menu. I basically followed Craig’s video, and 4.19 is the default PIS value for the GranTurismo.

As for the pump, yes, I can hear it running roughly every 20 seconds, depending on whether the car is stationary or being driven. I’m not sure whether this is related to the solenoid valve being triggered or not triggered.

I’ve done quite a lot of research on this car and the F1 system, but it’s still very difficult to find someone who really understands it and can actually help diagnose and repair the issue.

 

[philw696]

There has to be someone in Australia as when I was in New Zealand working for Maserati in Auckland out technical training and helpline was in Australia.
If they couldn't help we then contacted the Factory.

 

[strictly]

@dxxxxxxx im not surr if can try dropping kano a message from this thread. He was in Australia...completely different problem F1 but if you read all the way to page 3 it did actually get resolved.

Im not sure if he is still a forum member as I cannot tag him. I guess he was usung his local dealer....but not sure where in Australia that is

https://www.sportsmaserati.com/inde...serati-mechanics-scratching-their-head.39910/

 

[strictly]

For now, I can hear the F1 pump running quite frequently, roughly every 15–20 seconds.

I’m a bit worried that if I leave it like this, it could eventually burn out the pump or damage the actuator. From what I understand, the F1 hydraulic system/actuator is more fragile than the gearbox itself, and very expensive to fix or replace.

I cant help with that but others hopefully can. I can at least ask you some questions...

What hydraulic pressure is showing when pump not running (procedure 4 in AE1)?

Are you able to do procedure 5 in AE1? See screenshot. The purpose is to evaluate the accumulator vs other items like check valve etc? In essence it determines if your pump running time is between 4 to 6 seconds.

While it seems like high leakage points to the clutch solenoid in the power unit it makes sense to fully explore the hydraulic system using the AE1 procedures and your OBD tool to build the full picture

 

[mjheathcote]

There are quite a few independant specialists across Australia, doing a search, hopefully one of them in your locality.
If not, and of course Australia is a very big country, owning a niche car with little to no support in your geographic, is going to be challenging. But i'm sure still more fun than a Holden!

 

[Steve4200]

For now, I can hear the F1 pump running quite frequently, roughly every 15–20 seconds.

I’m a bit worried that if I leave it like this, it could eventually burn out the pump or damage the actuator. From what I understand, the F1 hydraulic system/actuator is more fragile than the gearbox itself, and very expensive to fix or replace.

Hi,

Pump running at those intervals is way too much. There are 2 components that are required to be in top shape to keep the pump interval > 2 mins engine off and > 1 min engine on in Neutral. These are the F1 fluid Accumulator and the Clutch Solenoid.

Unless you have a known leak, air in the system, loose F1 hydraulic block bypass screw, faulty or incorrectly set hydraulic block check valve, then the accumulator and clutch solenoid should be considered the cause of short pump intervals.

Most system work is needed to keep the clutch disengaged with engine on, hence the timing test engine off / engine on in Neutral.

The Accumulator is the pressure store and solely used to increase pump intervals and deliver high speed pressure pulses. Something the pump is not designed to do.

The Clutch Solenoid must be tight in its closed position, keeping pressure in the clutch line when disengagement required.

It’s possible that everything appears to work fine, just means the pump is overworked constantly, sometimes causing stalling or dropping into neutral whilst at or moving from standstill.

Regards
Steve

 

[dxxxxxxx]

@dxxxxxxx im not surr if can try dropping kano a message from this thread. He was in Australia...completely different problem F1 but if you read all the way to page 3 it did actually get resolved.

Im not sure if he is still a forum member as I cannot tag him. I guess he was usung his local dealer....but not sure where in Australia that is

https://www.sportsmaserati.com/inde...serati-mechanics-scratching-their-head.39910/

Looks like he got it fixed at the dealership. I’m planning to take mine to the dealership at the end of this month as well. Before that, I’ve also booked it in with a specialist to see if they can figure out the root cause. Hopefully it won’t be too expensive lol.

 

[dxxxxxxx]

I cant help with that but others hopefully can. I can at least ask you some questions...

What hydraulic pressure is showing when pump not running (procedure 4 in AE1)?

Are you able to do procedure 5 in AE1? See screenshot. The purpose is to evaluate the accumulator vs other items like check valve etc? In essence it determines if your pump running time is between 4 to 6 seconds.

While it seems like high leakage points to the clutch solenoid in the power unit it makes sense to fully explore the hydraulic system using the AE1 procedures and your OBD tool to build the full picture

I think the pump itself is working fine — it definitely takes less than 6 seconds to build pressure. The main issue is that it seems to run way too frequently.

After driving for a while, if I put the car in Neutral with the engine still running, the pump comes on roughly every 20 seconds. With the engine off, the interval seems normal at over 2 minutes.

 

[dxxxxxxx]

Hi,

Pump running at those intervals is way too much. There are 2 components that are required to be in top shape to keep the pump interval > 2 mins engine off and > 1 min engine on in Neutral. These are the F1 fluid Accumulator and the Clutch Solenoid.

Unless you have a known leak, air in the system, loose F1 hydraulic block bypass screw, faulty or incorrectly set hydraulic block check valve, then the accumulator and clutch solenoid should be considered the cause of short pump intervals.

Most system work is needed to keep the clutch disengaged with engine on, hence the timing test engine off / engine on in Neutral.

The Accumulator is the pressure store and solely used to increase pump intervals and deliver high speed pressure pulses. Something the pump is not designed to do.

The Clutch Solenoid must be tight in its closed position, keeping pressure in the clutch line when disengagement required.

It’s possible that everything appears to work fine, just means the pump is overworked constantly, sometimes causing stalling or dropping into neutral whilst at or moving from standstill.

Regards
Steve

Thank you. Yeah, there’s definitely something wrong. I might first ask some expert to help changing the F1 system oil, bleeding the system, and then checking the data again. If the leakage is still too high after that, I guess the next step might be replacing the PFV valve?

 

[dxxxxxxx]

The leakage rate on my GS is over 100cc/min (clutch solenoid valve triggered) It has been like this for over 5 years with no issues apart from the pump runs more than it should when engine is running.
I keep meaning to replace the clutch solenoid valve which after reading various documents / forum posts looks the likely culprit. Hopefully this winter I’ll have the time.

Yes, it’s totally drivable at the moment. I just can’t go more than 50%throttle from a standstill. But knowing there’s still something wrong with it makes me anxious every time I drive the car.