GS Gearbox mapping/upgrades

[Church of Noise]

From reading the entire 12 pages of the thread, the 360CS software works fine - but you need to transfer over the clutch wear and set the PIS with an SD2/SD3 for it to work right. The Sport button then toggles between Sport and Race modes. Which means the unicorn is possible, Sport mode with a softer Skyhook setting.

That looks like a much neater solution than the FD DBW, is anyone providing this service? (not Aldous apparently)

 

[Zep]

That looks like a much neater solution than the FD DBW, is anyone providing this service? (not Aldous apparently)

I should bring you up to speed on this. There has been over the years a lot of talk about putting 360cs software on the GS, and around 8 years ago, folks had some sort of update which emulated this. The exact details are hazy, and the person that did it doesn’t do it anymore.

Since then, there has been sporadic discussion about it, attempts to find someone who has both the skills and inclination to do this. To date there have been no actual works done, but from Todd’s post 9 months ago, he was trying to make contact with someone from France who might.

In short, I wouldn’t get your hopes up, it’s more of a dream than a service, but it would be nice if it did happen.

 

[conaero]

I indeed had the CS software on my Gs back in the day. I did have a one point the FD DBW upgrade that I didn’t get on with and sold on.

The CS upgrade was proper but you will struggle to find someone who can do it. Think you had to connect to the factory and trick the vin by connecting it to a Ferrari first, without getting found out.

 

[todd.the.submariner]

I indeed had the CS software on my Gs back in the day. I did have a one point the FD DBW upgrade that I didn’t get on with and sold on.

The CS upgrade was proper but you will struggle to find someone who can do it. Think you had to connect to the factory and trick the vin by connecting it to a Ferrari first, without getting found out.

That is a fascinating bit of intelligence information to have. However, it does eliminate Aldous' proposed solution of having to rewrite the code, line by line, and simply flashing with CS code, then transferring settings using an SD2/3.

Concur that we will struggle to find someone who will do it. Being that I'm in the US, that struggle is quite Sisyphean, as there is not a community for Maserati aftermarket tuning here due to the low density of units in the US. Our UK friends have a far more active community (which is why I lurk here from 7 time zones away). But if @conaero says it's a tough nut to crack, that's enough to give me pause.

Suffice to say, if anyone is bold enough to tilt at that windmill, I'll sharpen the lances and will happily join in to help.

 

[Gazcw]

So as it has not been suggested, you cannot fit the CS ecu in a GS then (if you could find one)?

 

[spkennyuk]

So as it has not been suggested, you cannot fit the CS ecu in a GS then (if you could find one)?

Short answer is no.

Long answer is noooooooooo

If zeps right in the process of how they were done then the only way i can see it can be done now is to find one of the cars 4200/GS's with the software already on it and copy the software and use that as the starting point to compare against the code of standard software.

Its more than likely just some of the data values that are being used from the CS software for pump pressure for example not all the values due to differences in hardware.

There are physical differences between the actuators for example on the 360/CS compared to the maserati parts.

In the picture below the actuator on the left is the fez part. The one on the right is the mas part the cams operate the opposite way.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Bit late to chime in on this, but it's something we've do daily
SO i'll really try and condense this as much as possible.

• FD modules

Nonsense, I've seen more issues then benefits it's just a simple dbw trick making for example 60% throttle pedal be 90% throttle output, aka sprint booster
They're wiring kit is very american in it's primitive use of scotch blocks it's waiting for wiring issues down to road. (i've asked Cyril and Jeff why not just properly make a connector so actual plugs in but whatever)
A NCR looks for TPS to adjust it's tables in general 60% will activate it's maximum/shorts shifts hence when you fake the TP angle it will just shift like when you're actually driving aggressively

Just drive the Maserati as it's intended and just the accelerator in sport this will save clutch. (with oil at temperature offcourse)
Further more it will make low speed and parking better (DBW hacks are always WAY to jumpy)

• 360CS

Not that straight forward I've heard of this for years but no one ever actually shows what they do OR come with evidence
Why am i skeptical? it sounds like people just repeating 360 information (where this is a actual mod, same as on F355 Fiorano)
Like posted by spkennyuk a CS transmission has differences AND further more there are actuation difference on the robot (which is largely shared TBH)
Also the F1 pump is the same the pressure accumulator and a few other items aren't.

Now that you can adjust but for example simply plugin in that ecu would cause torque index issues because you're getting flat plane vs cross plane torque band issues
I'm not say this can't be done, i haven't seen it done and it being the case (FYI here in the shop)

• NCR/TCU swaps > CFC201 to CFC231

This is the simplest swap, a 2005 EU spec GranSport CFC231 is the best shifting and most aggressive unit, if you can find it Trofeo ECU's where setup like a 360 CS

• Setting up the NCR

The first big step will be not only doing a self learning run but the fine tweaking the NCR unit, here in the shop i do this weekly using my SD3 or MD laptops it's not hard it takes some finesse and hot and cold runs are required
It's not just "PIS", you have KISS point, actuator setup, gear engagement parameters, temperature to factor in.

• Maintenance check

Do a maintenance check on the hydraulic parts, whilst you don't have much data on CFC #2 series in terms of leakage tests a leaky solenoid directly effects shifts
Also a rusty input shaft, leaking f1 bearing, seeping quick release on the left-side of the gearbox, cracked f1 pump feed hoses are all factors
Fresh CHF 11 fluid in the whole system is going to be a step as well, for example mixing ATF/HDX with CHF will give a mess especially in the robot.

Check the rear gearbox mount, it's actually not ideal, hence QPV and GT run twin mounts to better absorb the inherent smacks from the F1 shifts.

• Downpipes/catpipes

Now this is something in 4200GT which is rather odd, removing the dented down pipes by free flowing ones (we're having a special oval one designed and made which will be released soon)
This actually makes the engine run smoother at 2000-4000 rpm, removes the laggyness in the engine, it creates the effect of better shifts as you're shifting in to a higher torque curve.

One of the reasons why a 2004 Quattroporte with a CFC231 feels sooooo much smother than a GranSport, that and the twin gearbox mounts versus single one in M138 chassis (hence the clunky shifting)
It's not making the gearbox better it just feels better because once engaged the engine revs up stronger.

• Condition of the robot

Whilst this is a factor it's no that straight forward to quickly explain, we're currently doing trails in refurbishing them, as the actuator will go out of spec especially on 02-04 cars we've had a lot in the shop.
The sleeve bearings and shafts can go bad in-the robot too.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

OK so i forgot to mention something

CFC301 and newer,
OK So i've looked into these, nope not without rewiring and a major headache
So from QPV onward the wiring is standardized and communicates in "Florence" (that's how Fiat calls the most heavy duty can system)

This architecture is shared between 612 and QPV, GranTurismo and for example 599 are evolution of this.

Effectively changes pinout, as seen in CFC231 in a 612 and a QPV 2004
They use the later F1 relay (so the one with big pins) they have provisions in the wiring for clutch pressure sensors, more yaw sensors etc.

You can not swap that in M138 chassis, the wiring of the fuse-box and the pin-out on the NCR is different (F1 pump control your first issue, missing input second, canbus the real headach)
That said in theory you could.... but you'd be throwing in a GranTurismo wiring loom in a GranSport aka a customer would really need a budget for me to take something like that on.
Can't overstate the headache of the canbus! (as you're NCR lives in can group "C" and need to see all of it's friends/members (NBC,NFR,NCM)


What makes that evo beter? why can't a 138 shift like one?

1. like i said the gearbox mounts make it so much smoother, many 138 chassis cars have lead counterweights bolted to the diff housing just to compensate (the square box)
2. F1 pump control and pressure management improved and thus much more reliable
3. Clutch pressure feedback sensor, and update yaw sensor (ESP 8.0 cars, 138 is a 5.7 just as 2004 QP/612)
4. From SoFast 3+ you have the ability to run big F1 Pump adding 20-30 bar of pressure in "MCS and MCR aka Race"
   1. GranTursimo 4.7S MC Shift, 599, 612 MY 07
      • 599 GTO and MC Stradale (FYI NO you do not have a 599 gearbox period, you use a portion of the F1 actuator, as it's a two part actuator on all 575,612,599)
      • This actuator is simplified and the engagement claw is different

CFC 301 in QPV starting in 2005 also has a lot more computing power, for example the DEIS calibration SD3, MD, DEIS laptops is very lengthy method of calibration, measuring and setting up ALL F1 parts (solenoids, clutch, engagement, etc etc etc)
DEIS often will find a issue with a solenoid, we had a 2007 SportGT QP in, (rare this is the very last one hence using GranTurismo/California clutch and the rear brakes and modules of a ZF Quattroporte)
The car was eating clutches the previous shops couldn't figure out why customer just noted slipping clutches, whilst i did feel disengagement issue of the clutch solenoid this is very very particular and not a common issue. (aka it was not releasing the pressure properly burning clutches)
My suspicions where confirmed with the MD laptop going trough a diagnostic feature for SO3+ running a solenoid test and calibration to get it within new value.

Trying to rack that down without enough comparative experience (knowing what's right and what's not for a given model at each stage) is a real issue as that isn't a CEL trigger for the NCR.
That's a big reliability improvement of 301 onwards, and if those cars are dealer maintained with self-learning every few years you'll get a consistently better driving and A LOT faster shifting car.

This is a maintenance point on all CFC201,231 cars that is mostly overlooked So basically all F/M cars up to 2005 ish

 

[ofenomeno99]

So basically no one knows how to service / properly maintain these clutches including Maserati

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

So basically no one knows how to service / properly maintain these clutches including Maserati

I would most certainly hope that Maserati dealers know, and at least in mainland Europe that is the mostly case if they've been dealing with these cars for 20 years (so they had them in new and did training)
A new dealer/staff that came along after F1 cars that's where it get tricky as they've only ever done ZF GT's and Ghibli etc.

I know the situation in the US is A LOT worse (as we actually supply a lot of shops/owners in the US)

 

[ofenomeno99]

I would most certainly hope that Maserati dealers know, and at least in mainland Europe that is the mostly case if they've been dealing with these cars for 20 years (so they had them in new and did training)
A new dealer/staff that came along after F1 cars that's where it get tricky as they've only ever done ZF GT's and Ghibli etc.

I know the situation in the US is A LOT worse (as we actually supply a lot of shops/owners in the US)

That’s what I mean though - you are a rare breed and unless new solutions are brought forward / refresher training is given to the new generation we could end up with situations where we have cars needing new clutches/ reprogramming etc. and either having clutches that are not set up correctly or not even being able to put in new ones.

So even being in a situation where someone puts on a new clutch for you may mean that it is not set up properly which would end up affecting the performance of the car or premature failures. And this is not taking the cost of parts + labour into account.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

That’s what I mean though - you are a rare breed and unless new solutions are brought forward / refresher training is given to the new generation we could end up with situations where we have cars needing new clutches/ reprogramming etc. and either having clutches that are not set up correctly or not even being able to put in new ones.

OK So i agree, and actually in the Dutch club we're working on a plan for this, I've already given club training courses at my shop. (during MCH Technical events)
We're possibly looking into seminar's or Information topics in the club magazine.

In my opinion lack of information, and thus the rumors of unreliability and cars being broken is what:

• Devaluation
• Loss of population (like what has happened with BiTurbo's and rapidly is happening with 3200GT)
• Loss of interest (TBH you just hear only horror stories online and general opinion of shops/dealers)

 

[mjheathcote]

Bit late to chime in on this, but it's something we've do daily
SO i'll really try and condense this as much as possible.

• FD modules

Nonsense, I've seen more issues then benefits it's just a simple dbw trick making for example 60% throttle pedal be 90% throttle output, aka sprint booster
They're wiring kit is very american in it's primitive use of scotch blocks it's waiting for wiring issues down to road. (i've asked Cyril and Jeff why not just properly make a connector so actual plugs in but whatever)
A NCR looks for TPS to adjust it's tables in general 60% will activate it's maximum/shorts shifts hence when you fake the TP angle it will just shift like when you're actually driving aggressively

Just drive the Maserati as it's intended and just the accelerator in sport this will save clutch. (with oil at temperature offcourse)
Further more it will make low speed and parking better (DBW hacks are always WAY to jumpy)

• 360CS

Not that straight forward I've heard of this for years but no one ever actually shows what they do OR come with evidence
Why am i skeptical? it sounds like people just repeating 360 information (where this is a actual mod, same as on F355 Fiorano)
Like posted by spkennyuk a CS transmission has differences AND further more there are actuation difference on the robot (which is largely shared TBH)
Also the F1 pump is the same the pressure accumulator and a few other items aren't.

Now that you can adjust but for example simply plugin in that ecu would cause torque index issues because you're getting flat plane vs cross plane torque band issues
I'm not say this can't be done, i haven't seen it done and it being the case (FYI here in the shop)

• NCR/TCU swaps > CFC201 to CFC231

This is the simplest swap, a 2005 EU spec GranSport CFC231 is the best shifting and most aggressive unit, if you can find it Trofeo ECU's where setup like a 360 CS

• Setting up the NCR

The first big step will be not only doing a self learning run but the fine tweaking the NCR unit, here in the shop i do this weekly using my SD3 or MD

• Downpipes/catpipes

Now this is something in 4200GT which is rather odd, removing the dented down pipes by free flowing ones (we're having a special oval one designed and made which will be released soon)
This actually makes the engine run smoother at 2000-4000 rpm, removes the laggyness in the engine, it creates the effect of better shifts as you're shifting in to a higher torque curve.

One of the reasons why a 2004 Quattroporte with a CFC231 feels sooooo much smother than a GranSport, that and the twin gearbox mounts versus single one in M138 chassis (hence the clunky shifting)
It's not making the gearbox better it just feels better because once engaged the engine revs up stronger.

• Condition of the robot

Whilst this is a factor it's no that straight forward to quickly explain, we're currently doing trails in refurbishing them, as the actuator will go out of spec especially on 02-04 cars we've had a lot in the shop.
The sleeve bearings and shafts can go bad in-the robot too.

Bit late to chime in on this, but it's something we've do daily
SO i'll really try and condense this as much as possible.

• FD modules

Nonsense, I've seen more issues then benefits it's just a simple dbw trick making for example 60% throttle pedal be 90% throttle output, aka sprint booster
They're wiring kit is very american in it's primitive use of scotch blocks it's waiting for wiring issues down to road. (i've asked Cyril and Jeff why not just properly make a connector so actual plugs in but whatever)
A NCR looks for TPS to adjust it's tables in general 60% will activate it's maximum/shorts shifts hence when you fake the TP angle it will just shift like when you're actually driving aggressively

Just drive the Maserati as it's intended and just the accelerator in sport this will save clutch. (with oil at temperature offcourse)
Further more it will make low speed and parking better (DBW hacks are always WAY to jumpy)

• 360CS

Not that straight forward I've heard of this for years but no one ever actually shows what they do OR come with evidence
Why am i skeptical? it sounds like people just repeating 360 information (where this is a actual mod, same as on F355 Fiorano)
Like posted by spkennyuk a CS transmission has differences AND further more there are actuation difference on the robot (which is largely shared TBH)
Also the F1 pump is the same the pressure accumulator and a few other items aren't.

Now that you can adjust but for example simply plugin in that ecu would cause torque index issues because you're getting flat plane vs cross plane torque band issues
I'm not say this can't be done, i haven't seen it done and it being the case (FYI here in the shop)

• NCR/TCU swaps > CFC201 to CFC231

This is the simplest swap, a 2005 EU spec GranSport CFC231 is the best shifting and most aggressive unit, if you can find it Trofeo ECU's where setup like a 360 CS

• Setting up the NCR

The first big step will be not only doing a self learning run but the fine tweaking the NCR unit, here in the shop i do this weekly using my SD3 or MD laptops it's not hard it takes some finesse and hot and cold runs are required
It's not just "PIS", you have KISS point, actuator setup, gear engagement parameters, temperature to factor in.

• Maintenance check

Do a maintenance check on the hydraulic parts, whilst you don't have much data on CFC #2 series in terms of leakage tests a leaky solenoid directly effects shifts
Also a rusty input shaft, leaking f1 bearing, seeping quick release on the left-side of the gearbox, cracked f1 pump feed hoses are all factors
Fresh CHF 11 fluid in the whole system is going to be a step as well, for example mixing ATF/HDX with CHF will give a mess especially in the robot.

Check the rear gearbox mount, it's actually not ideal, hence QPV and GT run twin mounts to better absorb the inherent smacks from the F1 shifts.

• Downpipes/catpipes

Now this is something in 4200GT which is rather odd, removing the dented down pipes by free flowing ones (we're having a special oval one designed and made which will be released soon)
This actually makes the engine run smoother at 2000-4000 rpm, removes the laggyness in the engine, it creates the effect of better shifts as you're shifting in to a higher torque curve.

One of the reasons why a 2004 Quattroporte with a CFC231 feels sooooo much smother than a GranSport, that and the twin gearbox mounts versus single one in M138 chassis (hence the clunky shifting)
It's not making the gearbox better it just feels better because once engaged the engine revs up stronger.

• Condition of the robot

Whilst this is a factor it's no that straight forward to quickly explain, we're currently doing trails in refurbishing them, as the actuator will go out of spec especially on 02-04 cars we've had a lot in the shop.
The sleeve bearings and shafts can go bad in-the robot too.

CFC 201 to 231 swop, is this a straight plug and play, after setting up of course?
I've always wondered how the original first gen firmware 201 compares to the last gen firmware GS 231.

Your oval downpipe replacement sounds interesting, always thought the twin pipe larini being not as free-flowing as they make out.

It's great you have an interest in this era of Maserati.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

CFC 201 to 231 swop, is this a straight plug and play, after setting up of course?
I've always wondered how the original first gen firmware 201 compares to the last gen firmware GS 231.

Your oval downpipe replacement sounds interesting, always thought the twin pipe larini being not as free-flowing as they make out.

It's great you have an interest in this era of Maserati.

Yes but

IF CFC 201 is from a M138 chassis it swaps with a M138 CFC231

DO NOT swap in a CFC 231 from a M139 this will cause damage as the control pins for F1 pump are different as they use a different relay and it will not work in the car

Firmware of NCM and NCR is best only in 2005 GranSport EURO this is the only GS to have the big manifolds and aggressive tune, EURO 4 US spec was standardized in end of 05, let's call that 2006
Those are softer, in general stay away from USDM spec ecu's they're nearly always watered down.


As for the downpipes, I've used in the past Larini for the EU spec cars and SuperSprint for US spec cars.
Why we're having it all redone, Larini quality is so so, hence they polish everything to make it bling it's not that good, there service is similar.
SuperSprint is rough and ready, and they're not afraid of showing there welds.

Both systems expand first few good runs there are a two pipes per bank and they can distort and touch sub-frame cross-members etc etc
both go trough two y-pipe mergers which are simply welded, OK fair enough and most economical.

The idea i had with my exhaust engineer in Italy is to have the new section made out of custom oval tubing as to not restrict flow, add merger and split points.
PLUS having them expanded and contract uniform, i expect to install first batch early next year on a few cars here in the shop.

 

[todd.the.submariner]

What we have been referring to as the TCU, is that actually this part on the Trofeo? https://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/.../trunk-compartment-control-units-74445/196593
If it's as simple as swapping out my 2004 TCU for the unit linked above, I'm willing to be the trial run for that experiment.
For ASM, if there's going to be an opportunity for remote tutorial on clutch/transmission maintenance for us home mechanics, count me in.

 

[mjheathcote]

What we have been referring to as the TCU, is that actually this part on the Trofeo? https://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/.../trunk-compartment-control-units-74445/196593
If it's as simple as swapping out my 2004 TCU for the unit linked above, I'm willing to be the trial run for that experiment.
For ASM, if there's going to be an opportunity for remote tutorial on clutch/transmission maintenance for us home mechanics, count me in.

It can't be as easy as that, surely?
I can't believe it is listed as available (actually subject to availability, might not), and not too expensive either!

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

It isn't that easy, the trofeo ecu is not order-able anymore, hasn't been for years as always with eurospares and all other online parts dealers available to order = we'll ask Italy and hope.
What we do when ordering with head office is send whole excels (complete diagram pages worth) in a shotgun strategy if it's there i'll take it. it usually isn't on anything prior to QP ZF.

I can't stress enough how important it's to properly setup the TCU/NCR prior to getting into replacing it with something else.
Get your maintenance up to date, setup the car correctly THEN decided

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

For ASM, if there's going to be an opportunity for remote tutorial on clutch/transmission maintenance for us home mechanics, count me in.

remote learning and F1 really doesn't work as it's a lot of "feeling" what's right what isn't and sounds etc.
you can read your dealer training courses and still not get it right

 

[todd.the.submariner]

It isn't that easy, the trofeo ecu is not order-able anymore, hasn't been for years as always with eurospares and all other online parts dealers available to order = we'll ask Italy and hope.
What we do when ordering with head office is send whole excels (complete diagram pages worth) in a shotgun strategy if it's there i'll take it. it usually isn't on anything prior to QP ZF.

I can't stress enough how important it's to properly setup the TCU/NCR prior to getting into replacing it with something else.
Get your maintenance up to date, setup the car correctly THEN decided

Can't blame a man for trying the shortcut when it appears to be offered (buying a Trofeo TCU), but it does only make sense that there aren't any available new.
Getting the maintenance up to date and done right is going to be the real challenge, as I live in Seattle, and have zero faith in the Maserati and Ferrari dealer mechanics to work on a 2004 robotic gearbox for anything less than the value of the entire car, and even then I can't imagine them getting it right. I'd rather purchase every special tool needed and learn how to do it myself, or find a specialist to drive to, spending a week with them learning my way around the machine. My local independent specialist has a Ferrari mechanic, but even they had to fly in a specialist just to do a clutch swap.
One of the hazards of owning a European car with such specialized needs in a remote western outpost of civilization, there is no depth of experience here as there are so few examples of the car around. Now you see why I am keen for any remote learning opportunities - there's little else available, and I drive this car exceptionally hard, so it's undoubtedly in need of inspection and adjustment beyond the PIS.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Can't blame a man for trying the shortcut when it appears to be offered (buying a Trofeo TCU), but it does only make sense that there aren't any available new.
Getting the maintenance up to date and done right is going to be the real challenge, as I live in Seattle, and have zero faith in the Maserati and Ferrari dealer mechanics to work on a 2004 robotic gearbox for anything less than the value of the entire car, and even then I can't imagine them getting it right. I'd rather purchase every special tool needed and learn how to do it myself, or find a specialist to drive to, spending a week with them learning my way around the machine. My local independent specialist has a Ferrari mechanic, but even they had to fly in a specialist just to do a clutch swap.
One of the hazards of owning a European car with such specialized needs in a remote western outpost of civilization, there is no depth of experience here as there are so few examples of the car around. Now you see why I am keen for any remote learning opportunities - there's little else available, and I drive this car exceptionally hard, so it's undoubtedly in need of inspection and adjustment beyond the PIS.

Keeps amazing me, that said i've been flown in too, although with travel restrictions haven't been able to visit american customer this year.