GRANDTURISMO MC SHIFT - F1 BOX DEIS - ONLY FOOLS RUSH IN !

[BillyLove]

Been giving myself a hard time about this - as per the title and to be honest its well deserved - I am an idiot.

MC Shift - 2009 - 47k Miles Original Clutch - Detailed History and in the 6 years I have owned the car its been fantastic with only tires / servicing and one wheel bearing - I service the car every second year and have used East Coast Sports Cars and David Philips in the past for the 2 year services to keep the provenance up to date - I've done the rocker gaskets / powder coated the covers / fitted a new OEM wheel bearing and a few other electrical bits and bobs ( wheel bearing at the time also caused some F1 issues - speed sensor the actual bearing was perfect just the speed sensor at fault ! - all easy fixes. ) . I love my car. Kids love my car - Even my wife loves ....our....... Car.

On the way to the Scottish Italian Car day at Hopetoun House she jumped into N whilst doing a 2 to 3 change - hit the up paddle and all was great. Its happened a couple times in the past - usually when its been parked up for a month or so and once warm the gearbox was without fault.

On the way home I had her in MC mode - running her pretty hard through the gears and got the Transmission Take to Dealer - Flash up on the dash / Limp Mode - Can only run in 1st and second gear - would not change any higher.

Autel MK808 was in the glove box so pulled over - Fault Code - P1782 Clutch Closure Greater Than Maximum Threshold - Cleared it and made it about another mile or so easy driving before it came back - So limped home on the back roads.

I had just bought a Launch X431 so plugged it in - cleared the fault again and within seconds it came back - SO Long story short after not fully understanding the F1 Box or the parameters on the diagnostics - A new to me option that I do not have on the Autel grabbed my attention

DEIS Self Learn - I run the procedure - It failed at Dead Band with Unexpected Value and resulted in Gear Unavailable on the dash - No Start Situation ! I have since read all the posts and released the meaning of fools rush in - once more !

Further to Strictly from this forum forwarding on some really good literature I followed the steps - Hopefully I may have found the issue. BUT not 100% so any advice more than welcome.

I can still run all the procedures and adjust the values and get the data with both Autel and Launch - I just cant get the car to run a full DEIS on Launch to allow the start as I think the original data has been wiped from the TCU ( Gearbox ECU)
I believe the DEIS can only be completed on a working car with no faults as part of a new clutch install where you specify the new clutch value. Other wise the software just does not work and should be avoided.

My Findings ( See Attached Brain Dump ) - Clutch Wear 70% / Hydraulic Pressure - 40 - 60 Bar / It will perform Gear Grid Self Leaning Successfully and change through the gears / No Leaks Externally / Battery is good / Engagement OK etc

Failure at Dead band = Potential Issue with the Clutch Solenoid - Checked the Oil Leakage both Cold and Hot ( Jumped R7 at let it run for 20 min) and found the values exceed the 30cc/min when HOT - 62.4 - Screenshots attached

I have resigned myself to needing a new clutch but would like to get the car operational and back to a working baseline before I take it apart and install the clutch and associated required components and stay well away from DEIS.

My question is whats my options - or what would you do in my situation ?

• Can I further prove its the Clutch solenoid leaking internally ? - replace it bleed it and get my TCU fixed / perform the gear grid learn and adjust without dropping the box to access the solenoid.
• How difficult is it to get my TCU back on line - can it be saved and reprogrammed - I noted on the 430 Ferrari Launch diagnosis it gives an option for copying data from and onto the TCU.

Or

• Do I bite the bullet at start stripping it apart now - Install the new clutch and will DEIS run to conclusion with my TCU no longer having the required data.

I always knew a clutch would be on the cards and my intention is to spend this winter stripping the underside / suspension and sub frame - Replace whats needed / powder coat the sub frame, replace all hoses / rubbers and refresh whatever else jumps out during the works.

Any help or advice welcomed

Best

Billy

 

[conaero]

Well I would say that your original issue was an end of life clutch.

Fitting a new clutch and setting up as fresh and doing a relearn with a Maserati specific tool is the starting point, it may just all work fine but you need to get to that point to find out.

I can do the clutch for you (www.sportsmaserati.co.uk) and the setup and relearn and also trial your TCU in another car to prove its ok, maybe something you could try first.

 

[BillyLove]

Thanks Conaero.

Really appreciate your expert advice and may still end up shipping the car down to you ! - Pretty handy with the mechanics / have the tools and facility's at home and love a challenge.....although the F1 box is new to me- I see this as an opportunity to learn some new skills whist working on the car with 2 of my boys who are pretty keen on cars and bikes and anything with an engine - I currently have No 2 Son finishing his cooper s and another with a hankering for an Alfa GTA.

Would the leakage past the solenoid be an indicator of the clutch being dead ? - Or is the clutch being dead then resulted in the solenoid issue.

Would you accept my TCU to trial if I posted it out to you ?

Best

Billy

 

[cheburator]

I will start with two things - DEIS is notoriously fickle even with a new clutch. One way to get round the issue is to start the car and get the gearbox/drivetrain nice and warm, while the car idles in neutral. Then attempt a DEIS relearn. 8/10 it works. Secondly, when I bricked up my TCU, the clutch solenoid was buzzing, prompting a well known and respected specialist to think it was faulty and we replaced it. Turned out, there was nothing wrong with the solenoid. Once the TCU was re-flashed with software off another identical MY car, all was good - the buzzing stopped.

DEIS is the work of the devil. Leave well alone at all times - change your clutch, set up the PIS following the factory instructions and let the TCU adapt itself as you drive the car.

Alex

 

[BillyLove]

Hi Alex - thanks for your sound advice . A new clutch and associated is a definitive - Just a little nervous as to the TCU / re-flash and setting up without DEIS. The nuts and bolts of it wont be an issue - the little black magic codes in the DEIS.............. send a shiver down my spine.

Best

Billy

 

[strictly]

I will start with two things - DEIS is notoriously fickle even with a new clutch. One way to get round the issue is to start the car and get the gearbox/drivetrain nice and warm, while the car idles in neutral. Then attempt a DEIS relearn. 8/10 it works. Secondly, when I bricked up my TCU, the clutch solenoid was buzzing, prompting a well known and respected specialist to think it was faulty and we replaced it. Turned out, there was nothing wrong with the solenoid. Once the TCU was re-flashed with software off another identical MY car, all was good - the buzzing stopped.

DEIS is the work of the devil. Leave well alone at all times - change your clutch, set up the PIS following the factory instructions and let the TCU adapt itself as you drive the car.

Alex

Alex

Always an interesting reply. Do you know the procedure for the PIS? The one I have found. SEE ATTACHED is majorly convoluted even with a running car.

So if there is a different procedure I would like to know especially after the install of a new clutch as the attached procedure it states a moving car...and that seems difficult unless it would be possible to get the car moving provided all of the other clutch procedure steps where followed excluding step 11 which talks about the DEIS?

Luke

 

[strictly]

@cheburator

Alex another question for you...do you think your bridge relay trick will work in this circumstance? Could be worth a shot?

See screenshot

https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/i-destroyed-mc-gearbox-ecu-in-my-gt.39008/page-3

@BillyLove this link below won't solve your problem as you know my knowledge is limited. I can share the parameters on my own car for reference, ask some questions of others and just put some things in front of your nose but that is far as it goes.

Anyway this thread is worth a read especially page 2 and 3 for more back ground on the ecu ncr bricked problems. It won't solve your problem but worth a read. I have easymas obd which may be able to save your ecu by putting it in my own car...but I dont have enough experience or confidence of usung it..

https://www.sportsmaserati.com/inde...serati-mechanics-scratching-their-head.39910/

P.s the first thread posted above is also worth a read especially page 4 where the car started with no user intervention lol. I would read both threads in full.

I think we have also seen a non start resolved by disconnecting the wheel speee bearings one by one. OK it's unlikely to be an issue but I myself would attempt all the low cost things first as while Its certainly clutching at straws you may get lucky.

 

[BillyLove]

Hey Strictly....Done the R7 bridge a couple times but no dice....Was good to hear it start though ...Thanks for your most excellent advice.....I needed to do the bridge trick to run the EV leakage hot.....which showed the leakage over 30cc ...cica .....60cc/min out with acceptable parameters...Everytime I go back into the garage I cross my fingers it might have a change of heart .....I am hoping Matt aka Conaero.... or some other wizard can help me get my TCU back on line with a re flash.....happy to pay for this if anyone on this forum has the ability to sort or help with it.....appreciate your offer but I would also not be confident doing it incase I bricked your ecu.....

 

[BillyLove]

All this time with a no drive Maserati may incurr another issue.....I need a V8 soundtrack fix for the Summer and an MC Stradale has always been on the cards......

 

[zagatoes30]

All this time with a no drive Maserati may incurr another issue.....I need a V8 soundtrack fix for the Summer and an MC Stradale has always been on the cards......

Every cloud has a silver lining

 

[strictly]

Get the strad for sure!

Not that I know enough but yes I see that getting the NCR ecu checked out and hopefully fixed is your first step followed by the clutch replacement. I would still check the F1 oil level because it costs nothing and you will have to anyway later on. Also the abs sensor disconnect check for start. Again it's a no cost thing to check.

My loose understanding based on various threads and the technical bulletin is that there is a chance the ecu can be saved by swapping into another vehicle.

What i dont know but would like to is wether this could be accomplished with EasyMas OBD @Steve4200 and then what the precise steps are.

If so then over time I would like to learn how to do this as we see regular bricked NCR ECUs so if there is a way to save them and bail fellow owners out this needs exploring

Good luck!

 

[cheburator]

Hey Strictly....Done the R7 bridge a couple times but no dice....Was good to hear it start though ...Thanks for your most excellent advice.....I needed to do the bridge trick to run the EV leakage hot.....which showed the leakage over 30cc ...cica .....60cc/min out with acceptable parameters...Everytime I go back into the garage I cross my fingers it might have a change of heart .....I am hoping Matt aka Conaero.... or some other wizard can help me get my TCU back on line with a re flash.....happy to pay for this if anyone on this forum has the ability to sort or help with it.....appreciate your offer but I would also not be confident doing it incase I bricked your ecu.....

if she starts with the R7 trick, have you actually let her idle for a bit in Neutral till she gets to temp - the main shaft in the transaxle will be turning - so you will get her to better temperature and then tried to run DEIS? Also, if you can get the clutch to disengage so that you can start the car, it's not all lost...

 

[Steve4200]

Get the strad for sure!

Not that I know enough but yes I see that getting the NCR ecu checked out and hopefully fixed is your first step followed by the clutch replacement. I would still check the F1 oil level because it costs nothing and you will have to anyway later on. Also the abs sensor disconnect check for start. Again it's a no cost thing to check.

My loose understanding based on various threads and the technical bulletin is that there is a chance the ecu can be saved by swapping into another vehicle.

What i dont know but would like to is wether this could be accomplished with EasyMas OBD @Steve4200 and then what the precise steps are.

If so then over time I would like to learn how to do this as we see regular bricked NCR ECUs so if there is a way to save them and bail fellow owners out this needs exploring

Good luck!

Hi ,

EasyMAS will not cause this issue, but on the flip side it cannot fix it.
We are looking at a solution as it’s a flaw in the DEIS learn. The reason is that the procedure does not save the original DEIS data (working) to fall back to if the DEIS learn fails. A bricked F1 ECU is the result.

Don’t worry about EV Leakage until ECU fixed.

Regards

 

[strictly]

Hi ,

EasyMAS will not cause this issue, but on the flip side it cannot fix it.
We are looking at a solution as it’s a flaw in the DEIS learn. The reason is that the procedure does not save the original DEIS data (working) to fall back to if the DEIS learn fails. A bricked F1 ECU is the result.

Don’t worry about EV Leakage until ECU fixed.

Regards

@Steve4200 as you know already im a huge fan of EasyMas OBD especially because of your knowledge and of course it being proven safe with the F1 FCU (NCR) unlike many other OBD tools. Always great to have your input. Now I know that even I did know how to use my tool properly I could not yet be able to save a bricked ecu from another car

 

[BillyLove]

Get the strad for sure!

Not that I know enough but yes I see that getting the NCR ecu checked out and hopefully fixed is your first step followed by the clutch replacement. I would still check the F1 oil level because it costs nothing and you will have to anyway later on. Also the abs sensor disconnect check for start. Again it's a no cost thing to check.

My loose understanding based on various threads and the technical bulletin is that there is a chance the ecu can be saved by swapping into another vehicle.

What i dont know but would like to is wether this could be accomplished with EasyMas OBD @Steve4200 and then what the precise steps are.

If so then over time I would like to learn how to do this as we see regular bricked NCR ECUs so if there is a way to save them and bail fellow owners out this needs exploring

Good luck!

Thanks Strictly - The Maserati Academy doc you forwarded as well as your advice and help is really appreciated.

Will get some time on Friday arvo after work to Investigate the Oil level....it looks bloody difficult to access - I can just touch the top of it - possibly need to recruit a small child to get it off for me.

 

[BillyLove]

if she starts with the R7 trick, have you actually let her idle for a bit in Neutral till she gets to temp - the main shaft in the transaxle will be turning - so you will get her to better temperature and then tried to run DEIS? Also, if you can get the clutch to disengage so that you can start the car, it's not all lost...

Yep - Run her for a good half hour - Coolant temp up over 90 and the fans were on - Can put it in N with the Launch ( or any gear and it passes the gear grid every time) - Tried the DEIS with the Maserati software and the Ferrari Software - It did make it a little further with the Ferrari 430 and looked to be almost over the line at one point - until it wasn't - thanks for your advice Cheburator - Appreciated.

 

[cheburator]

Yep - Run her for a good half hour - Coolant temp up over 90 and the fans were on - Can put it in N with the Launch ( or any gear and it passes the gear grid every time) - Tried the DEIS with the Maserati software and the Ferrari Software - It did make it a little further with the Ferrari 430 and looked to be almost over the line at one point - until it wasn't - thanks for your advice Cheburator - Appreciated.

Don't use the F430 Software - it's not designed for the Maserati MC Shift! The only Ferrari which uses the same set up is the F599 - use that software instead...

 

[BillyLove]

Hi ,

EasyMAS will not cause this issue, but on the flip side it cannot fix it.
We are looking at a solution as it’s a flaw in the DEIS learn. The reason is that the procedure does not save the original DEIS data (working) to fall back to if the DEIS learn fails. A bricked F1 ECU is the result.

Don’t worry about EV Leakage until ECU fixed.

Regards

Hi Steve

Sound advice - Thanks - Yep need the ECU fixed or investigated.

I did notice on the Launch Ferrari 430 Software there is a function that reads and copy's the ECU data.

Upload / Download - Wondered about using it to see if it would read my ECU - BUT - Thought better of it - Would rather someone who is familiar with the process advise.

Its not listed on the Maserati software -I wonder if its been an improvement to the Ferrari software to record and copy the DEIS data before committing to the function further to similar loss of data on Ferrari Clutch Change and Diagnostic works.

 

[BillyLove]

Don't use the F430 Software - it's not designed for the Maserati MC Shift! The only Ferrari which uses the same set up is the F599 - use that software instead...

OK Thanks - Will leave it alone - Took advice the 430 and 599 use the CFC301 TCU for the F1 gearbox.

 

[cheburator]

OK Thanks - Will leave it alone - Took advice the 430 and 599 use the CFC301 TCU for the F1 gearbox.

That is correct, but there are variations on the CFC301 TCU - the last Quattroporte also use the 301 but the actual software/hardware is different...