F1 Gearbox fun and games - and some error codes

[Mattp]

Hi, its been a while, but now Covid is 'over' Im thinking of using the QP again...

summer before last I had an issue where the car would select N instead of a gear, or refuse to change down, an example being - approach a roundabout, shift down, but the car stays in 5th - the car has been SORNed since

Usually a few tugs at the paddles and it will shift into gear again. there have been a couple of times where Id have to leave the car parked up for 10 mins or so before it would behave.

before this the clutch wear was 66% and again 66% when read at the main dealer and at an indie 8 months later - its done less than 1000 miles since

The clutch doesnt slip and generally its as good as gold, changing gears quite happily Ill get this gremlin maybe every 5 times i drive the car.

Ive had the codes read and along with some (wha look unrelated) are these gearboxy ones...

P1586 Engine Off Request from ECU
P1773 Clutch beyond PIS
P1774 Clutch hydraulic failure
P1735 Self Powering relay driver

One of the pipes on top of the gearbox (Pipe 185977) gave out and was replaced (for £1000), Id have thought my indie would have cleared the codes from that so I dont know if any of these are pre that incident.

But any insights as to what may need fixing to bring back shift reliability? Adjustments, £££££££ or both?!

 

[spkennyuk]

Did any of the codes clear when they were reset ?

Engine off code is usually when the clutch position sensor either cant determine the actual clutch position or sees the clutch in the wrong position due to it starting to break down.

The hydraulic failure and relay could just be stored codes from when the pipe was changed.

Out of pis range again could be the clutch position sensor throwing a wobbly.

If you have access to diagnostic its worth checking the relay activity for the f1 pump and also look at the pump pressure. Is it holding pressure for 2 to 3 gear changes before the relay triggers the pump again.

Clear the codes first and see which codes come back and go from there.

 

[Mattp]

Thanks spkenny, that's some useful information, my friends garage has a launch which cleared the codes, the car is now due its Mot so will see what resurfaces after that and it's had a few miles...

I'm not mechanically minded, so what should I tell him to look out for on the pump pressure, is that something that the launch can monitor?

Clutch breaking down sounds like something I wouldn't like to have to visit! Is it possible to get some visibility on that without taking the gearbox off??

Cheers
Matt

 

[Ryandoc]

Not sure your location but if my gear change issues are anything to go by the dealer was embarrassing trying to fix it and Marios at Autoshield Manchester fixed it with about 3 hours labour.

Naturally not saying yours is a quick fix like that but my recommendation would be to use any of the well respected Indi’s wherever you are. It should be a quicker better resolution.

Hope you get it sorted relatively easy

 

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

You have to ask yourself whether the main dealers are truly "invested" by way of interest, motivation, training and experience in the F1 transaxle system. I figure that lots of those folks are simply oil change and routine mtce. kind of people. The other thing is that as F1 transmission cars get older, owners start seeking the Independents, looking to lessen labour charges. Hence competent Independents increasingly become the go-to fonts of knowledge.

 

[spkennyuk]

Did any of the codes clear when they were reset ?

Engine off code is usually when the clutch position sensor either cant determine the actual clutch position or sees the clutch in the wrong position due to it starting to break down.

The hydraulic failure and relay could just be stored codes from when the pipe was changed.

Out of pis range again could be the clutch position sensor throwing a wobbly.

If you have access to diagnostic its worth checking the relay activity for the f1 pump and also look at the pump pressure. Is it holding pressure for 2 to 3 gear changes before the relay triggers the pump again.

Clear the codes first and see which codes come back and go from there.

There are some cut outs in the bell housing which allow some visual inspection but really not great. You can only see one side of the clutch plate. So only really any use to say yes there is some clutch life left or its looking like it 100% worn.

If your under the car looking at the bell housing from the rear of the car the red cable on the right side is for the clutch position sensor. Worth checking that it is intact and no signs of cable or connector damage.

If it turn out to be the clutch position sensor then its not a mega expensive part.

First things first if the codes have been cleared then see which codes come back. That will give us a clearer idea of what is happening after f1 hydraulic pipe was changed.

If your mechanic mate has the launch system then ask him to look at the live data streams for the f1 pump and the f1 relay.

When you open the car door you should hear the pump prime and then go off after a few seconds. This raises the pressure in the f1 system to the 40 to 50 zone. The pump should then only fire again if the pressure drops below 40 which is approx every 2 to 3 gear changes.

If there is an internal seal that is leaking you will see on the live data stream that the system pressure is dropping quickly and the f1 relay will keep firing as a result. The f1 relay can fail. It is a cheap part if you buy the one on the alternative parts list. If that relay is failing it can lead to the pump failing.

From the info you have provided so far it sounds like your clutch is still ok and has life left in it.

The issue probably lies in either the clutch position sensor or the TCU.

There is i believe a relay in the tcu which can fail and cause symptoms similar to the clutch position sensor starting to fail. Both parts can be changed without the pain of removing the clutch or gearbox and both parts a few hundred pounds not thousands.

It is really a matter of seeing what if any new codes have been thrown up and going from there.

Feel free to pm me if you need any help.

 

[Swedish Paul]

You can see the clutch at the back of the engine on the drivers side (uk). Open the bonnet and someone inside selecting a gear or neutral. Probably doesn’t help but at least you can see it.

 

[Wanderer]

You can see the clutch at the back of the engine on the drivers side (uk). Open the bonnet and someone inside selecting a gear or neutral. Probably doesn’t help but at least you can see it.

Clutch is at the rear axle though on an F1 box is it not?

 

[Swedish Paul]

Clutch is at the rear axle though on an F1 box is it not?

Clutch is at the back of the engine. Gearbox is back axle.

 

[Wanderer]

Clutch is at the back of the engine. Gearbox is back axle.

Well paint my bottom blue and call me Pamela. Another illusion shattered

 

[Swedish Paul]

Well paint my bottom blue and call me Pamela. Another illusion shattered

Okeydokey Pam. It is ok to call you Pam? Only some folks get offended. Particularly those who don’t like being called Pam.

 

[Wanderer]

Okeydokey Pam. It is ok to call you Pam? Only some folks get offended. Particularly those who don’t like being called Pam.

It’s like finding out there’s no Father Christmas

 

[Cdn17Sport6MT]

If I'm not mistaken, Porsche 924, 944, 968.... and even possibly the 928 have the same arrangement. Alfa Alfetta and following by comparison have twin plate clutches in unison with rear mounted transaxle (and have inboard rear disk brakes).

 

[rs48635]

had similar symptoms but increased frequency, ending in car dropping to neutral while travelling 130kph sur la autoroute. Pulled over to recover my sh!t and car failed to proceed. Mine turned out to be failing F1 pump (more precisely the motor?). Had OEM part fitted by McGrath once car was re-patriated.

 

[spkennyuk]

Clutch is at the rear axle though on an F1 box is it not?

I think your thinking about the clutch plates on the diff. The clutch is on the back of the engine.

 

[Mattp]

Some Excellent diagnostic advice, ive run through some tests...

when the drivers door opens, the pump runs for ~6 seconds
if the car is on, but nothing is touched for at least 7mins the pump does not come on again (engine running or key just in the on position)
the car will shift into first and into neutral about 3 times before the pump runs - again for about 6 seconds
Two relays were replaced with red Ferrari 50A ones about 1000 miles ago
The battery is relatively new and lives on a CTEK when its in storage.

the car had been off for a couple of days/nights. I went to move it from one bit of driveway to another, then I turned it to on, it was in drive, but didnt release into N, Gear not available came up on the display, I tried selecting a gear and I could hear the car trying to select gear, after a couple of tugs on the paddles, it finally dropped into N and worked fine for me to move the car.

The car is due its MOT on weds, Ill get the codes read again before i take it up and Ill also point my friend in the direction of this thread.

 

[spkennyuk]

Some Excellent diagnostic advice, ive run through some tests...

when the drivers door opens, the pump runs for ~6 seconds
if the car is on, but nothing is touched for at least 7mins the pump does not come on again (engine running or key just in the on position)
the car will shift into first and into neutral about 3 times before the pump runs - again for about 6 seconds
Two relays were replaced with red Ferrari 50A ones about 1000 miles ago
The battery is relatively new and lives on a CTEK when its in storage.

the car had been off for a couple of days/nights. I went to move it from one bit of driveway to another, then I turned it to on, it was in drive, but didnt release into N, Gear not available came up on the display, I tried selecting a gear and I could hear the car trying to select gear, after a couple of tugs on the paddles, it finally dropped into N and worked fine for me to move the car.

The car is due its MOT on weds, Ill get the codes read again before i take it up and Ill also point my friend in the direction of this thread.

The F1 pump seems to be operating within specs based on what your reporting there. Your friend will be able to run and record the live data streams while the car is moving bit from the tests you have run the pump appears to be OK.

Everything so far is pointing to the clutch position sensor or a fault developing on the TCU itself.

When your friend looks at the live data streams there are some other options in there. Clutch out of position/ range or something similar is one of them. There is another one called something like clutch beyond pis. The list of options runs into pages so forgive me for not remembering the exact names. Your friend will be able to spot the relevant option to select.

In the absence of any additional codes or info from the data streams. If the clutch position sensor is the fault then its a straight forward change over that your mechanic friend should be able to do. I think they are around £300 without checking. But get him to check the wiring for signs of damage and check the connector is clean and undamaged.

If it proves to be the TCU then its a bit more complicated. You may be able to get your existing tcu repaired. In which case it is a unplug send off for repair and plug back in scenario. Possibly voicy or mike from maserati shed may be able to help with that.

If the TCU needs to be changed then you really need a indy to do that. The parts around the £500 area 2nd hand from memory. The issue is that it contains the all the clutch data and pis settings along with every recorded gear change and miles per gear which when added up should total the same as the speedometer. All that information needs porting across to your new TCU. Its one of the areas a PPI could look at to see if the cars mileage is genuine. One of the used parts suppliers should be able to supply one for you if needed. There are a few different software /tcu versions so get your mechanic to check which version you have for future reference.

See what the new codes are if any and then go from there.

 

[Mattp]

Ok, ive had some movement on this... the car is finally at the garage...

the system pressurizes fine - pump cycles as expected, pressure never drops below 40bar, the clutch opens and closes

on the the launch - clutch actuator sensor shows 0bar with the clutch engaged and anywhere from 17-40 bar when open

The car is showing intermittently a hydraulic pressure code - yet live hydraulic circuit pressure is shown as 40-50bar.

we had the car drive in the workshop, but it then opens the clutch and drops into neutral - this happened in both forward and reverse

here are some error codes that we managed to get after clearing them earlier...

U0028 CAN Network incorrect Function (Plausibility)
P1586 Engine Off Request from Gearbox Control ECU

but they havent shown up today - infact the car is currently code free. We are select gears ok using the launch, but the car is unable (unwilling) to change itself - when off it wont select N so has issues starting, and when on, will select D but not actually engage the clutch - but no warnings on the dash and no codes in the EC

Ran an actuator test from the Launch - shifted through the gears and completed the test fine - so looks like pressure and actuators are ok.

Looks like its a bucket of work to get to the Clutch position sensor - is there any way of testing the thing before heading down that road???