Oneball
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I don’t think there’s a battery life issue is there?
Electric Cars
- Thread starter zagatoes30
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I don’t think there’s a battery life issue is there?
safrane
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All current EV batteries have a rechargeable cycle limit... tech is evolving with a c100k battery on the cards, but that tech is used on very small batteries (watch size) and has a tendency to explode.
Another 10 years in development I would guess, and by then we will have become extinct.
Another 10 years in development I would guess, and by then we will have become extinct.
Zep
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As usual the cycle limit on batteries is not as simple as it sounds. If you don’t deep cycle the batteries this can hugely extend their cycle life. For example, if you run a Li-on battery from 100% to 20% before charging consistently, it will drop to around 80% capacity in around 4200 cycles. But if you go between 70% and 50% then the battery retains over 90% capacity over more than 8000 cycles. Charging speed is also a contributor, faster (I.e. higher current) is worse as is the speed of discharge as bursts at high current but the reason we use Li-on chemistry is it’s high power density and it’s resistance to degradation over high numbers of cycles.
Things we don’t know about EVs is where the maximum charge point is and what the final voltage is when they say the battery is empty as this is in the programming of the computers. So the actual projected life is a lottery.
For example, BMW are delivering my new 330e on Friday. They warrant the battery for 3 years and up to 60,000 miles. If it drops below 75% capacity in that time they will refurbish it to more than 80% capacity under warranty. I imagine this refurbishment will take the form of replacing faulty cells in the battery pack to bring it back to normal operation.
Things we don’t know about EVs is where the maximum charge point is and what the final voltage is when they say the battery is empty as this is in the programming of the computers. So the actual projected life is a lottery.
For example, BMW are delivering my new 330e on Friday. They warrant the battery for 3 years and up to 60,000 miles. If it drops below 75% capacity in that time they will refurbish it to more than 80% capacity under warranty. I imagine this refurbishment will take the form of replacing faulty cells in the battery pack to bring it back to normal operation.
CatmanV2
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That I would agree is planned obsolescence. Engineering failure. The rest are just (for want of a better phrase) 'failure' because the engineering does not exist
C
Wanderer
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I think we or I discussed this before given the high tax for petrol and lower for hybrid/full electric and what happens to the hybrids when the batteries fail?
Answer was drive on 100% petrol but keep the RFL/Motor Tax benefit as it still is an electric car (of sorts), there's no check...
Answer was drive on 100% petrol but keep the RFL/Motor Tax benefit as it still is an electric car (of sorts), there's no check...
allandwf
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A bit like white goods 10 years built in obsolescence.
CatmanV2
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Exactly. Build it to last 10 years. Don't build any spares to repair it or support it
C
Rwc13
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I wonder, is anybody else on here actually running an electric car? There is quite a lot of negativity but any actual experience?
Concerning battery life, I understand that Tesla have customer cars running at 800000kms on their original batteries. So is battery failure a real or theoretical issue.
And like everything, there are different electric cars for different needs. If you want to do longish distances on a single charge, Tesla and Jaguar are your main options at the moment.
But if you want an electric commuter/runaround, there are a lot of options.
We were looking for a small cheap used runaround. Having considered things like VW UP, Polo etc, I spotted a 2014 Renault Zoe for sale at a similar price. It had only done 10k kms. Took it for a drive and was pleasantly surprised, so we bought it.
Don’t get me wrong, it won’t win any awards for beauty and the interior is typically Renault plasticky, but it is brilliant for the job we bought it to do. Seats 4 adults reasonably comfortably for short journeys, has a decent boot etc. Even at 5 years old, it will do 95kms when fully charged - which is 95% of original battery life - this is more than enough for the runaround journeys we do. Indeed, it rarely drops below 50kms range before it is slow recharged overnight.
AND, it is actually very pleasant to drive, without the engine noise, it feels very refined and has that linear acceleration that becomes rather addictive. In fact, we only now use the ICE cars when we “need” to, eg doing a longer journey or need a V8 fix.
Also, I bought my Zoe on a lease battery scheme, so if the battery performance ever drops below 85% of original, they will replace the battery - this meant the purchase price was considerably lower than the alternative scheme as you don’t purchase the battery.
So, I am a convert to an electric car based on our personal use criteria - the Zoe fits our runaround brief perfectly.
I am also considering replacing our current SUV with a longer range used electric car, eg Tesla or iPace. I’m definitely keen to reduce my carbon footprint and, in Portugal, such a large proportion of electricity is renewable (even more so if you generate it yourself) that this feels like a good thing to do.
Of course, I will keep my V8 for ”weekend” use, and will feel less guilty about using it.
So my point is, electric cars can fill certain use criteria really well. There may not yet be a perfect electric replacement for the all purpose family car (because of range, charging speeds and price), and they are no replacement for a V8 sportscar, but if you have several cars in your family, don’t dismiss an electric to fulfill at least one of the transport criteria.
Concerning battery life, I understand that Tesla have customer cars running at 800000kms on their original batteries. So is battery failure a real or theoretical issue.
And like everything, there are different electric cars for different needs. If you want to do longish distances on a single charge, Tesla and Jaguar are your main options at the moment.
But if you want an electric commuter/runaround, there are a lot of options.
We were looking for a small cheap used runaround. Having considered things like VW UP, Polo etc, I spotted a 2014 Renault Zoe for sale at a similar price. It had only done 10k kms. Took it for a drive and was pleasantly surprised, so we bought it.
Don’t get me wrong, it won’t win any awards for beauty and the interior is typically Renault plasticky, but it is brilliant for the job we bought it to do. Seats 4 adults reasonably comfortably for short journeys, has a decent boot etc. Even at 5 years old, it will do 95kms when fully charged - which is 95% of original battery life - this is more than enough for the runaround journeys we do. Indeed, it rarely drops below 50kms range before it is slow recharged overnight.
AND, it is actually very pleasant to drive, without the engine noise, it feels very refined and has that linear acceleration that becomes rather addictive. In fact, we only now use the ICE cars when we “need” to, eg doing a longer journey or need a V8 fix.
Also, I bought my Zoe on a lease battery scheme, so if the battery performance ever drops below 85% of original, they will replace the battery - this meant the purchase price was considerably lower than the alternative scheme as you don’t purchase the battery.
So, I am a convert to an electric car based on our personal use criteria - the Zoe fits our runaround brief perfectly.
I am also considering replacing our current SUV with a longer range used electric car, eg Tesla or iPace. I’m definitely keen to reduce my carbon footprint and, in Portugal, such a large proportion of electricity is renewable (even more so if you generate it yourself) that this feels like a good thing to do.
Of course, I will keep my V8 for ”weekend” use, and will feel less guilty about using it.
So my point is, electric cars can fill certain use criteria really well. There may not yet be a perfect electric replacement for the all purpose family car (because of range, charging speeds and price), and they are no replacement for a V8 sportscar, but if you have several cars in your family, don’t dismiss an electric to fulfill at least one of the transport criteria.
Rwc13
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Yes, I live in the Algarve. But that’s my point, the Zoe is not a day trip car. It’s to do short local trips - which make up the vast majority of the trips we do every day. For that, and considering the renewable energy available to me here, it is relatively cheap, economical and environmentally friendly. It is also more fun - in a different kind of way - to drive than I was ever expecting it to be
My brother visited over the weekend with his Jaguar I-Pace.
Can't fault the dynamics when you floor it - it is epic. 0-60 in 4.6 secs
But, practicality-wise it's a non starter, an evolutionalry dead end until they sort out the charging infrastructure or they get more miles out of the battery when doing distance at motorway speeds.
He calculated his round trip would be 175 miles. When he set off the car said it was good for 250 miles. He use up half the charge getting to me so ~85 miles so touch and go for the return... You have to ask yourself - are you feeling lucky punk?
Anyway he wasn't, and had decided he was going to top up in order to get home and it would need around 20-25mins on a fast charger to get him back to > 70%
Nearest charging point was a mile away. Took us 7 minutes to get into the vicinity and another 10 trying to actually track it down. 20 minutes trying to get the chargers to work and 10 minutes on the phone to "support" who it turns out couldn't see that the chargers weren't working and would "call an engineer". Helpfully they suggested we try another one about 2-3 miles away and gave the post code.
Another 10-15 minutes to get to the next one, this time easier to find in a BP station. However, the charging point didn't have RFID reader to "log in" so instead of waiving a card he had to use his phone to log into an app, remember his user name, password, etc and try and read the crappy dirty screen on the charger which was doubly difficult in the bright hot sun.
Anyway finally success and 25 mins mooching in a BP forecourt before he was satisfied that he'd have plenty to be able to get home on.
Back to my place.
He said that it had only cost him £7 for the electricity but this was not back to full only 70% from around 48% by the time we'd finished faffing.
I said, and it's taking us 2 hours to do this....
What would have happened if the second charger was kaput? Or in fact there was a queue? There was only one charger....
Works fine if you are a town car and recharging o/n at home but just useless for any normal extended journeys.
He says he doesn't make many of these sorts of journeys, but even if it's only infrequent you definitely need access to another car!
He's drunk the cool-aid so no talking him round.
Eb
Can't fault the dynamics when you floor it - it is epic. 0-60 in 4.6 secs
But, practicality-wise it's a non starter, an evolutionalry dead end until they sort out the charging infrastructure or they get more miles out of the battery when doing distance at motorway speeds.
He calculated his round trip would be 175 miles. When he set off the car said it was good for 250 miles. He use up half the charge getting to me so ~85 miles so touch and go for the return... You have to ask yourself - are you feeling lucky punk?
Anyway he wasn't, and had decided he was going to top up in order to get home and it would need around 20-25mins on a fast charger to get him back to > 70%
Nearest charging point was a mile away. Took us 7 minutes to get into the vicinity and another 10 trying to actually track it down. 20 minutes trying to get the chargers to work and 10 minutes on the phone to "support" who it turns out couldn't see that the chargers weren't working and would "call an engineer". Helpfully they suggested we try another one about 2-3 miles away and gave the post code.
Another 10-15 minutes to get to the next one, this time easier to find in a BP station. However, the charging point didn't have RFID reader to "log in" so instead of waiving a card he had to use his phone to log into an app, remember his user name, password, etc and try and read the crappy dirty screen on the charger which was doubly difficult in the bright hot sun.
Anyway finally success and 25 mins mooching in a BP forecourt before he was satisfied that he'd have plenty to be able to get home on.
Back to my place.
He said that it had only cost him £7 for the electricity but this was not back to full only 70% from around 48% by the time we'd finished faffing.
I said, and it's taking us 2 hours to do this....
What would have happened if the second charger was kaput? Or in fact there was a queue? There was only one charger....
Works fine if you are a town car and recharging o/n at home but just useless for any normal extended journeys.
He says he doesn't make many of these sorts of journeys, but even if it's only infrequent you definitely need access to another car!
He's drunk the cool-aid so no talking him round.
Eb
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That sounds very similar to Harry Metcalfe's review of the iPace. I think they look good insight and out but I wouldn't have any electric car other than a Tesla. And I don't want a Tesla, either.
outrun
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I just invested into an electric moped company which, if you've been to Asia, are hugely popular in many countries but haven't yet caught on here. The bikes do 120km on a charge, the battery can be charged in the bike, or removed and charged by any normal socket. We supply them with 2 batteries too so you could have one at the office, one in the bike etc and double your range. Best part is that battery swap pods are being rolled out so you'll just switch a charged battery for your dead one, a bit like a Calor gas canister. I think they are great for commuters who don't want use public transport these days and also for young people to get around, especially when you consider the extreme cost of car insurance for teenagers. In Scotland, the government subsidies the bikes and then offers up to 6 years interest free loan on them so a 16 year old could be mobile for £27 a month on a new bike. (They will lend up to £35k interest free so there are lots of Tesla 3 appearing here as a result).
To me, it's this type of short, journey stuff that electric is really good for. Of course, there is a longer range version aimed at delivery drivers, which is another cool marketplace these days.
I'd have an electric car for short journeys if that's all I did but I don't, therefore forget it. And they're not very green anyway as has been discussed before. However, if I had a commute to work or even to a station then I'd look at the mopeds as a way of doing it with the lowest possible cost.
Lots of jumbled messages there! I wouldn't buy an electric car, but I would use a moped if my life required a commute that suited it. Which it doesn't but will for many others!
To me, it's this type of short, journey stuff that electric is really good for. Of course, there is a longer range version aimed at delivery drivers, which is another cool marketplace these days.
I'd have an electric car for short journeys if that's all I did but I don't, therefore forget it. And they're not very green anyway as has been discussed before. However, if I had a commute to work or even to a station then I'd look at the mopeds as a way of doing it with the lowest possible cost.
Lots of jumbled messages there! I wouldn't buy an electric car, but I would use a moped if my life required a commute that suited it. Which it doesn't but will for many others!
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^^yeah, this