E10 Ethanol Fuel - The definitive answer (3200/4200/GS)

MaserMike

Member
Messages
329
Mike,
That's very concerning for those of us that have older cars standing around. Thanks for posting.
By the way, what is E85?
Hi Geoff. Yeah it is very worrying and it appears these expensive E10 additives may do very little to prevent long term damage. E85 looks to be a high ethanol fuel, doesn't appear to be readily available in the UK..maybe in the US?. So it may be a case of having to use the water and syphon off ethanol trick, but not very practical when refuelling out and about in our cars.

I'm going to also buy some fuel octane, preservatives and cleaners for all my petrol engines including for generator, lawnmowers, quad bike, chainsaw, ride on etc. As ethanol appears to destroy all these engines and I have noticed fuel go off much quicker these days, when stored or infrequently used.


Also Valvemaster Plus or similar is vital for our older engines, for leaded replacement + octane + stabiliser. (Already use Valvemaster standard)

My friend is getting his brother who works at an oil refinery, to get a fuel scientist verdict on what's the best solution....
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,110
It should be noted that the video doesn’t test E5, which is in practice 2-3% ethanol. I also think this kind of video goes for clicks, so some of the key details are lost.

For example, that the worst corrosion was seen with fuel that was deliberately contaminated with water. Where kept in a sealed container there was little if any corrosion from the low ethanol contents.

That says (to me anyway) that most modern fuel injected cars (the purpose of this thread) will be ok, as the tanks are not vented to atmosphere so water can’t get in. If you store with a full tank, there is no air which means no water absorbed as double insurance.

For carburettor cars with brass floats, non-synthetic hoses and open vent fuel tanks, measures need to be taken. Plastic floats are available, as are resistant hoses and rubber parts. Stabiliser might help. You can buy ethanol free petrol for lawnmowers etc, but it’s super pricey. Or you can break out the tank and the food colouring.
 

MaserMike

Member
Messages
329
It should be noted that the video doesn’t test E5, which is in practice 2-3% ethanol. I also think this kind of video goes for clicks, so some of the key details are lost.

For example, that the worst corrosion was seen with fuel that was deliberately contaminated with water. Where kept in a sealed container there was little if any corrosion from the low ethanol contents.

That says (to me anyway) that most modern fuel injected cars (the purpose of this thread) will be ok, as the tanks are not vented to atmosphere so water can’t get in. If you store with a full tank, there is no air which means no water absorbed as double insurance.

For carburettor cars with brass floats, non-synthetic hoses and open vent fuel tanks, measures need to be taken. Plastic floats are available, as are resistant hoses and rubber parts. Stabiliser might help. You can buy ethanol free petrol for lawnmowers etc, but it’s super pricey. Or you can break out the tank and the food colouring.
Agreed these videos always take with a slight pinch of salt, but demonstrates the longer term effects of ethanol. Modern cars should be fine.

However unless your fuel tank is absolutely brimming to the top with fuel, you will still have air in them I.e. if 3/4 full with fuel + 1/4 air etc. Which the fuel will absorb moisture from.

The problem I/we have is anything else non ethanol friendly which stores or has fuel in them. Mowers, classic cars, cars etc.

Good luck trying to replace some NLA carb parts for some engines and changing all the seals, diaphragms in the mechanical fuel injection distributors etc. I don't intended of running the ride on mower with super unleaded either. But I am considering an aftermarket EFI for the Oldsmobile... The Testarossa will be ruiniously expensive to change seals, fuel gaskets, bosch fuel distributors and injector pumps etc etc
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,110
However unless your fuel tank is absolutely brimming to the top with fuel, you will still have air in them I.e. if 3/4 full with fuel + 1/4 air etc. Which the fuel will absorb moisture from.

Absolutely agree, there will always be some air in the top of the tank, but the amount of moisture in that air is often misunderstood, but I know a bit about because of my day job.

Say for example you have a 100 litre tank, modern fuel injection, so it’s sealed, has a carbon canister and an air admittance valve. In this case, say the 10 litres of air is at 90% humidity at 20 deg C, pretty much the worst case scenario for moisture content. That air would have 14.5 grams of water per kilo of air. 10 litres of dry air weighs 0.012 kg. That means that in that 0.012kg of air, there is 0.174 grams of water. 1ml of water weighs 1 gram, so if all of that water is absorbed by the ethanol, it is about 0.174ml of water in the bottom of the tank. This, for me, is what all of these videos seem to miss, it’s so little as to make no difference at all.

For open vent tanks, like garden equipment, it is more likely to be an issue, but it takes a long time from what I have seen in my mower. So for that I store the mover with next to no fuel in it, as that limits the amount of moisture that can be absorbed.

Like you, I’d be much, much more worried about the reaction with rubber and lead based parts than corrosion caused by absorbed water and if it can’t be mitigated, find another solution, like removing ethanol or getting ethanol free from and alternate source.
 

MaserMike

Member
Messages
329
Absolutely agree, there will always be some air in the top of the tank, but the amount of moisture in that air is often misunderstood, but I know a bit about because of my day job.

Say for example you have a 100 litre tank, modern fuel injection, so it’s sealed, has a carbon canister and an air admittance valve. In this case, say the 10 litres of air is at 90% humidity at 20 deg C, pretty much the worst case scenario for moisture content. That air would have 14.5 grams of water per kilo of air. 10 litres of dry air weighs 0.012 kg. That means that in that 0.012kg of air, there is 0.174 grams of water. 1ml of water weighs 1 gram, so if all of that water is absorbed by the ethanol, it is about 0.174ml of water in the bottom of the tank. This, for me, is what all of these videos seem to miss, it’s so little as to make no difference at all.

For open vent tanks, like garden equipment, it is more likely to be an issue, but it takes a long time from what I have seen in my mower. So for that I store the mover with next to no fuel in it, as that limits the amount of moisture that can be absorbed.

Like you, I’d be much, much more worried about the reaction with rubber and lead based parts than corrosion caused by absorbed water and if it can’t be mitigated, find another solution, like removing ethanol or getting ethanol free from and alternate source.
Definitely agreed Ethanol seems to be the biggest enemy, bit worrying... for the time being I'll try the water trick and see what happens.
 

BennyD

Sea Urchin Pate
Messages
14,994
So, based on lots of enquiries I have spoken to the Maserati Factory to get the inside line on the use of E10 with the 3200/4200/Gransport model family. I have reproduced it below:


Thank you for contacting Maserati and for your interest in the Marque of the Trident – a brand that has been at the forefront of the automotive industry for over a century.

Regarding your request we would like to inform you that Maserati 3200 GT/GTA is NOT compatible with the use of E10 fuel, we recommend using only the fuel indicated in the use and maintenance booklet in its possession.

The Maserati Coupe CC/GT and Maserati Gransport with Homologation EU4 instead, are compatible with the use of E10 fuel, however, optimal performance conditions are guaranteed only by the fuels indicated in the Use and Maintenance Manual in their possession.

Thanks for understanding.

The alternative is to fill up and burn it in short order. If you are going to fill up and leave it, buy E5 and halve your problem.