E fuel

[Italiano]

TikTok - Make Your Day

We have wanted this from the beginning

Not this electric rubbish

 

[mjheathcote]

It's not quite as straightforward.
Depends how you manipulate the figures.
I believe the amount of electrical energy needed to produce an eFuel makes the fuel very inefficient.
Great to keep classics running without using dinojuice, but Hydrogen is the future (especially heavy trucks and machinery plant) ...then a new cleaner battery technology will come along!

 

[Neptune.]

I absolutely don't see hydrogen being the future anytime soon. There's just no good reason to go for this tech and there are loads of significant disadvantages, especially if you compare it to all electric.

Advantages against 100% electric:
-Slightly faster to refill, as far as 2025 battery tech goes.

That's it.

Inconveniences against 100% electric:
-Takes a lot of energy to create hydrogen. Most of this energy is coming from electricity
-If it doesn't use electricity to be produced then it comes from fossil fuel (methane essentially)
-It needs to be compressed at insanely high pressures to be stocked. Compression is very energy inefficient. So you add these losses on top of the previous ones.
-The pressured vessels are an incredibly dangerous hasard. Not only the gases will expand about 800 times in case of rupture, but they are very susceptible to ignite by reacting with oxygen, leading in an enormous ball of fire and poor people flying to the stratosphere. I can't think of a single thing being even remotely this dangerous in our daily lives. Propane is not even close to the specific energy hydrogen can release.
-An entire distribution network needs to be created from scratch. We already have an electric network
-Loads of trucks will have to carry hydrogen all around the globe, using giant pressured vessels. Imagine the damage if such a truck explodes in your neighborhood
-The dihydrogen molecule is so small that it can diffuse in most metals, it's extremely difficult to make storage and transportation gastight. Which is a problem with such an explosive molecule.
-Hydrogen combustion releases water vapor, which is one of the worst greenhouse gases. So it doesn't even help tackling the problem in the first place.

This whole hype around hydrogen in Europe is completely impossible to understand. People who are investing in this will probably deeply regret it in a few years. I was closely following what BMW did back in the days and I was really rooting for it, until I realised it was hopeless.
Maybe it will be useful in a few niche applications, but it simply doesn't make any sense for any mass diffusion.

To put it clearly, it solves no existing problem and creates a lot of new ones.
I guess time will tell eventually, but I wouldn't bet a kopeck on it.

 

[Italiano]

The amount of energy and resources to make electric cars is the real crime that governments stats are manipulating.
I'm in the heavy vehicle sector, and we have hydrogen and it's complicated.
E fuel is simple, initial outlay to refine and perfect in the long run will lower the price and increase the efficiency.
No such thing as cleaner electric technology, unless we design a "Logans Run" type car.

And not in the interest of big companies to have clean energy, they would earn nothing.
Same as pharmaceutical companies don't release a cure of the big afflictions, there is more money to be made in supplying relief for our ailments, than giving us the cure

 

[RodTungsten]

I absolutely don't see hydrogen being the future anytime soon. There's just no good reason to go for this tech and there are loads of significant disadvantages, especially if you compare it to all electric.

Advantages against 100% electric:
-Slightly faster to refill, as far as 2025 battery tech goes.

That's it.

Inconveniences against 100% electric:
-Takes a lot of energy to create hydrogen. Most of this energy is coming from electricity
-If it doesn't use electricity to be produced then it comes from fossil fuel (methane essentially)
-It needs to be compressed at insanely high pressures to be stocked. Compression is very energy inefficient. So you add these losses on top of the previous ones.
-The pressured vessels are an incredibly dangerous hasard. Not only the gases will expand about 800 times in case of rupture, but they are very susceptible to ignite by reacting with oxygen, leading in an enormous ball of fire and poor people flying to the stratosphere. I can't think of a single thing being even remotely this dangerous in our daily lives. Propane is not even close to the specific energy hydrogen can release.
-An entire distribution network needs to be created from scratch. We already have an electric network
-Loads of trucks will have to carry hydrogen all around the globe, using giant pressured vessels. Imagine the damage if such a truck explodes in your neighborhood
-The dihydrogen molecule is so small that it can diffuse in most metals, it's extremely difficult to make storage and transportation gastight. Which is a problem with such an explosive molecule.
-Hydrogen combustion releases water vapor, which is one of the worst greenhouse gases. So it doesn't even help tackling the problem in the first place.

This whole hype around hydrogen in Europe is completely impossible to understand. People who are investing in this will probably deeply regret it in a few years. I was closely following what BMW did back in the days and I was really rooting for it, until I realised it was hopeless.
Maybe it will be useful in a few niche applications, but it simply doesn't make any sense for any mass diffusion.

To put it clearly, it solves no existing problem and creates a lot of new ones.
I guess time will tell eventually, but I wouldn't bet a kopeck on it.

H2 and fuel cells need very clean air or another bottled gas (O2). H2 used as a fuel for ICE then solubility of the gas in the lubricant has to be an issue.

 

[Lozzer]

The amount of energy and resources to make electric cars is the real crime that governments stats are manipulating.

All arguments aside, this is blatantly obvious to anyone that knows one end of a spanner from the other.......

 

[stikey]

honda were running hydrogen cars round swindon out of there factory back a few years ago dropping water drops out the exhaust

 

[Phil H]

Hyundai also runs/ran a hydrogen car in Swindon.

 

[philw696]

Toyota too are still pursuing the hydrogen cars but boy they are expensive and with very little infrastructure for refueling I don't think they sell many.
When you turn them off and they shut down the steam coming out the back looks like you've blown the head gasket.

 

[James3200GTA]

A bit of a chicken vs egg story. There's no real H2 infrastructure, so driving becomes difficult, so nobody but a few enthusiast buy one. Companies do not see a bizniz model and you're back at square on. Think that H2 will only be viable for HGVs.

Short term batteries are going to be the main stream i.m.o. Battery tech has only been developing at an increased rate for the last few decades. ICE has been around for 100+ years and see where that took us.
In say 5 years, charging an EV, range, battery life will be so much better, that it can compete in a practical sense with filling up with gas. The current cars will be on the second hand market and available to the average Joe and you get a self-amplifying effect.

The more urgent question is how all this electricity is going to be generated and / or stored for when PV or wind is not available. That can hamper the EV revolution, although with enough EVs acting as energy storage to the grid, they might actually speed up this process (charging during day time, feeding the household at night).

As for E-fuels, there are very different ways of doing it and thus start-ups which are exploring this. But currently I believe the price per volume is about 5-10x what you pay at the pump or energy wise at the charging station. The way batteries are heading the development of e-fuels cannot keep up or get in the lead. I believe it will be a niche product for the likes of us.

 

[Italiano]

A bit of a chicken vs egg story. There's no real H2 infrastructure, so driving becomes difficult, so nobody but a few enthusiast buy one. Companies do not see a bizniz model and you're back at square on. Think that H2 will only be viable for HGVs.

Short term batteries are going to be the main stream i.m.o. Battery tech has only been developing at an increased rate for the last few decades. ICE has been around for 100+ years and see where that took us.
In say 5 years, charging an EV, range, battery life will be so much better, that it can compete in a practical sense with filling up with gas. The current cars will be on the second hand market and available to the average Joe and you get a self-amplifying effect.

The more urgent question is how all this electricity is going to be generated and / or stored for when PV or wind is not available. That can hamper the EV revolution, although with enough EVs acting as energy storage to the grid, they might actually speed up this process (charging during day time, feeding the household at night).

As for E-fuels, there are very different ways of doing it and thus start-ups which are exploring this. But currently I believe the price per volume is about 5-10x what you pay at the pump or energy wise at the charging station. The way batteries are heading the development of e-fuels cannot keep up or get in the lead. I believe it will be a niche product for the likes of us.

I'm in favour of anything anti electric lol.
I'm old and earned the right to drive and listen to a nice car. I'm not having that small pleasure taken away from me.
Extortionate road tax and depreciation but buying and owning a Maserati was never in the realms of practical or sensible financial decision

 

[Neptune.]

I'm old and earned the right to drive and listen to a nice car. I'm not having that small pleasure taken away from me.
Extortionate road tax and depreciation but buying and owning a Maserati was never in the realms of practical or sensible financial decision

Rights disappear quickly when people are not willing to fight to keep them.
So far no one is doing anything, no one complains, people keep paying these taxes and keep voting for these clowns. Why would they stop?

 

[safrane]

Suspect the 'idea' of regional electricity pricing is just part of the grand scheme of taxing EV use whilst at the same time bringing in congestion pricing via the backdoor.

So the SE and London will cost you more to drive where as in Scotland etc, where wind power is prevalent it will be less.

Push all the city drivers into driverless Ubers and soon you get the desired impact of ridding cities of personal cars.

Or am I becoming an conspiratorial fool?

 

[Italiano]

We venturing into conspiracy theories lol.
I'm glad my time on this earth is coming to an end, as much as I love conspiracy and sci-fi plots, in general the public believe in the government and their rights being protected by a government that shows concern.

I'm not one of those people, I believe governments (global) have an agenda. Control and manipulation. Restrictions on car ownership and movement (which is coming).
The medieval period, not much travel among us poor people, the gene pool quite small, so you dated and married your cousins and sister/brother.
Advent of car/train/plane and legislation, we wondered the earth and a more diverse human evolved accomplishing many great feats.
But now control is coming, only the blinkered and brainwashed individual cannot see or refuse to acknowledge.
The future dictates we cannot drive outside our dedicated zone, or incur penalties (black box/tracker/pay per mile) that's even if we can afford to own a mode of transport. So we will go back in time and adopting the social skills of dating your family again.
E banking, getting rid of paper cash, great idea not having to carry cash, (I still do btw), and when we full "E", being told where we can and cant spend, outside area spending prohibited, fast food franchise not healthy for you, list is endless.

Yes im mad, don't hold much sway, but im different. Identity is good, being a Lamb is not.

Of course this is only my opinion and not my intention to offend or distress the people of the forum.

Now back to E fuel people

 

[Lozzer]

We venturing into conspiracy theories lol.
I'm glad my time on this earth is coming to an end, as much as I love conspiracy and sci-fi plots, in general the public believe in the government and their rights being protected by a government that shows concern.

I'm not one of those people, I believe governments (global) have an agenda. Control and manipulation. Restrictions on car ownership and movement (which is coming).
The medieval period, not much travel among us poor people, the gene pool quite small, so you dated and married your cousins and sister/brother.
Advent of car/train/plane and legislation, we wondered the earth and a more diverse human evolved accomplishing many great feats.
But now control is coming, only the blinkered and brainwashed individual cannot see or refuse to acknowledge.
The future dictates we cannot drive outside our dedicated zone, or incur penalties (black box/tracker/pay per mile) that's even if we can afford to own a mode of transport. So we will go back in time and adopting the social skills of dating your family again.
E banking, getting rid of paper cash, great idea not having to carry cash, (I still do btw), and when we full "E", being told where we can and cant spend, outside area spending prohibited, fast food franchise not healthy for you, list is endless.

Yes im mad, don't hold much sway, but im different. Identity is good, being a Lamb is not.

Of course this is only my opinion and not my intention to offend or distress the people of the forum.

Now back to E fuel people

The "Great Reset"
You will own nothing and you will be happy.....apparently.

 

[zagatoes30]

Said it before, electricity is a secondhand power source so until we have a sustainable cost effective way of production and storage it's not an ideal solution. Today most electricity is generated from fossil fuels and therefore although clean at point of use it's not in its full life cycle never mind the cost of the battery production process to store it.

Solar and wind generation is weather dependent so therefore you always need a burst capacity, this was recently evident in Spain who lost there genertaion circuits from the South and had no back up so suffered massive power outages.

There is no easy answer but in my view too many companies and governments are backing just the one solution they are not seeing the big picture. I think we will head to supply demand issues in the next few years as reality kicks in, more fossil fuel power generation gives way to sustainable sources which will struggle to match the demand peaks.

 

[safrane]

So at the moment 'Green' energy gets subsidies to build, then locked in price per KWH when needed as well as fees for not generating when not needed. Conversely when extra power is needed we buy from France whilst the public pay Chinese companies to build nuclear here which the 'Green' energy Co. don't want to pay for as it so expensive and cost too much to run safely and close at EofL.

 

[Phil H]

The solution's obvious innit?

 

[Italiano]

We used to run cars on gas back in the day in Italy.
Lost your boot for the tank as you get a switch to flip.over to petrol if you ran out of gas.
Unsure if that still a thing in italy

 

[Lozzer]

LPG, another government incentive rug pulled from those with good intentions had invested, anyways after the scrappage scheme push for everyone to go Diesel (yes that actually happened), when are governments going to be held accountable for that? Clueless fuc*wits honestly, the net zero, carbon footprint, whatever spin you want to call it, it has nothing to do with the environment, let's just call it what it is, the biggest financial swindle the modern world has ever seen. Poor Greta......please send replies to: FAO Lozzer, Cell Net0, Starmer Jail, Pretend Utopia.
Population Billions.....