Dented pride

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1,117
no offence intended but that's simply poppycock, if you live your life like a sheep then prepare to get fleeced ;)
You need to be cognizant of reality and come off cloud 9 deluded by some hazy dream. Pick the battles you can win, not those you will lose (no offence intended of course). I hear this sort of cr&p all the time and most end up walking away with their tail between their legs (again, no offence intended).
 
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1,117
We all know the ‘book value’ will be a very low number. However, as the owner has only just got the car surely they would have difficulty claiming it had lost 5k or so in value in a matter of days! But it won’t stop them trying of course.....
We wont know until a decision is made. You are jumping the gun. Dont forget, the price paid might be above the market value. That is why I have both my cars on agreed valuation. Let us wait and see the outcome. I dont recall stating a valuation was less than the price paid. You are putting words in my mouth which I did not state......
 

Manc5

Member
Messages
395
I've had 1 car written off due to another parties fault.. it was parked and i wasn't even in it at the time ..and they basically gave me the trade in valuation for good condition + about 5%... I tried to eek out more but it was taking that long, getting really close to libellous and I just wanted to get another car so accepted in the end. They will fight you for every £.. but they did improve on 1st offer by an amount in the '00's so always worth a fight to a point.
 
Messages
1,117
I've had 1 car written off due to another parties fault.. it was parked and i wasn't even in it at the time ..and they basically gave me the trade in valuation for good condition + about 5%... I tried to eek out more but it was taking that long, getting really close to libellous and I just wanted to get another car so accepted in the end. They will fight you for every £.. but they did improve on 1st offer by an amount in the '00's so always worth a fight to a point.
Point well made. I had an increased offer of a hundred pounds or so. They just dont budge - and they give you 48hrs to accept or reject or make a fault claim. I think people are in cloud 9 thinking they can take on insurers and win. The most might be a small increase on their offer IF they decide a total loss. The rest can whistle for their money and threaten legal action / personal injury claim etc. Insurers are not perturbed - they have teams of in-house lawyers to fight counter claims. Thats why I say, pick only those battles you have a good chance of winning and put in the proportional resistance.
 

gb-gta

Member
Messages
1,130
We wont know until a decision is made. You are jumping the gun. Dont forget, the price paid might be above the market value. That is why I have both my cars on agreed valuation. Let us wait and see the outcome. I dont recall stating a valuation was less than the price paid. You are putting words in my mouth which I did not state......

Didn’t mean to put words in your mouth, I assume he paid retail and not trade price for the car a few days/weeks ago. If he managed to get the car cheaply through trade or private sale then he will be ok if it’s deemed a total loss.

Clearly, most insurers will offer low, ie trade value, for a total loss in the first instance.
I don’t know the legal details regarding what an offer has to bebut it usually states you should be able to replace the car with similar.

Maybe a few for sale ads of similar cars would come in handy, plus obviously the invoice he just paid!

Anyway, let’s hope it gets fixed so it won’t be an issue.

Problem is, wasn’t there a guy with a very low miles GTS (a 30k car) a while back who was hit on the rear wing, side on, at quite a low speed (15mph or so) with no structural damage that was quoted 22k to repair it due to it needing specialist aluminium repair?
That was written off. Tragic!
 

Alan Surrey

Member
Messages
990
Arguing with them for a change of outcome is unlikely to work and your personal involvement will be a fault claim or take a reduced scrap value, keep the wreck (now with Cat X status) and pay out of pocket for repairs.
I too speak from experience and am not spouting out.
I am unfamiliar ground here so need advice. Please, how does it work to " take a reduced scrap value, keep the wreck (now with Cat X status) and pay out of pocket for repairs."
I ask because if they decide to write it off on account of expensive new parts from Maserati, the most practical way of keeping this beautiful car on the road (beautiful underneath too, all the suspension replaced in the last 2 years) might be for me to pay a panel beater to fix it using low cost parts.
I understand from the forum - Thanks guys. I really appreciate all that you are contributing here - that I might only have 48 hours to respond, so I need to be prepared.
 

TimR

Member
Messages
2,656
I am unfamiliar ground here so need advice. Please, how does it work to " take a reduced scrap value, keep the wreck (now with Cat X status) and pay out of pocket for repairs."
I ask because if they decide to write it off on account of expensive new parts from Maserati, the most practical way of keeping this beautiful car on the road (beautiful underneath too, all the suspension replaced in the last 2 years) might be for me to pay a panel beater to fix it using low cost parts.
I understand from the forum - Thanks guys. I really appreciate all that you are contributing here - that I might only have 48 hours to respond, so I need to be prepared.
Basically, if you agree to take a sum in respect ‘total loss’ the car is effectively bought from you. What you are paid is your settlement. The car now belongs to the the underwriter.
By the time you see this outcome shaping up, you can very often buy back the car from said underwriter. It is helpful to cultivate relations with the insurers as it is these people with whom you must hope to strike a deal to buy back your old car....
You would be advised to to familiarize yourself with the various categories of classification that underwriters use as this too will influence your buy back price, the legal implication going forward, and the sometimes, thorny issue of the car being forever more branded with that record against it.
 

lifes2short

Member
Messages
5,821
You need to be cognizant of reality and come off cloud 9 deluded by some hazy dream. Pick the battles you can win, not those you will lose (no offence intended of course). I hear this sort of cr&p all the time and most end up walking away with their tail between their legs (again, no offence intended).

are those song lyrics, if not you may have a hit there, i give up and concede defeat, i must of dreamt my battle with insurers in avoiding a write off, walking away now with tail between legs
 
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lifes2short

Member
Messages
5,821
I am unfamiliar ground here so need advice. Please, how does it work to " take a reduced scrap value, keep the wreck (now with Cat X status) and pay out of pocket for repairs."
I ask because if they decide to write it off on account of expensive new parts from Maserati, the most practical way of keeping this beautiful car on the road (beautiful underneath too, all the suspension replaced in the last 2 years) might be for me to pay a panel beater to fix it using low cost parts.
I understand from the forum - Thanks guys. I really appreciate all that you are contributing here - that I might only have 48 hours to respond, so I need to be prepared.

what parts are you talking about, the damage doesn't look that bad either, most panels can be pulled and repaired if you find the right trade with the right tools
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,796
At risk of being told off by people who know long words and sophisticated Dutch insults, isn't the legal position that the dispute is between the owner of the two cars, with the insurers covering them for their liability? So while the insurers love to take control of the process and screw all the owners, there is an opportunity for the 'victim' to sue the 'perpetrator', win a settlement in court and then the perpetrator needs to recover this from the insurer. I know this is not how it normally works in practice, but isn't that the legal position?
 

lifes2short

Member
Messages
5,821
At risk of being told off by people who know long words and sophisticated Dutch insults, isn't the legal position that the dispute is between the owner of the two cars, with the insurers covering them for their liability? So while the insurers love to take control of the process and screw all the owners, there is an opportunity for the 'victim' to sue the 'perpetrator', win a settlement in court and then the perpetrator needs to recover this from the insurer. I know this is not how it normally works in practice, but isn't that the legal position?

nail on head, bravo and exactly why my threat of legal action worked in my case, but I'm sure someone will come along shortly and argue that point ;)
 

safrane

Member
Messages
16,749
Indeed... you take the action to recover the 'loss' ie how much out of pocket you are from said offer in comparison from that you paid less than a week ago!
 

rs48635

Member
Messages
3,181
I am unfamiliar ground here so need advice. Please, how does it work to " take a reduced scrap value, keep the wreck (now with Cat X status) and pay out of pocket for repairs."
I ask because if they decide to write it off on account of expensive new parts from Maserati, the most practical way of keeping this beautiful car on the road (beautiful underneath too, all the suspension replaced in the last 2 years) might be for me to pay a panel beater to fix it using low cost parts.
I understand from the forum - Thanks guys. I really appreciate all that you are contributing here - that I might only have 48 hours to respond, so I need to be prepared.
Hi Alan
Do you still have the car and does it drive okay?
Are you concerned about legacy of having car "category rated"?
Contact good local bodyshops and sound out the real world cost to repair. Metal can be pulled, stretched and beaten into shape. The preparation and painting is the key element.
Light fitting is known cost less than £200
boot lid is aluminium OEM = ££££ - second hand ones available
exhaust silencer standard OEM £1400 - world of opportunity hereto have one (or two) made at far less cost!!
OSR wing £1800 new- decent bodyshop can likely make good.
rear bumper - part alone was almost £1000 so repair or get used. The crash/crush pad underneath would need attention.Your outer bumper looks fine to me, could be painted to look pristine.

If it was my car and a keeper the rating matters zero. And if only an economic "write off" then future sale would likely meet a buyer like you or me. Pop all the numbers into as spreadsheet and literally see if it adds up.

fit a new rear light and keep enjoying the car!
 
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Felonious Crud

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,017
Indeed... you take the action to recover the 'loss' ie how much out of pocket you are from said offer in comparison from that you paid less than a week ago!

Exactly. The principle of indemnity - to return you to the position you were in prior to the accident.

My two pen'th: it doesn't look that bad and whilst I'm sure it would be easy to work out why it's a £5k repair bill, I can't help but feel that a decent repairer could get that looking as good as new for a good bit less. Besides, a brand new rear light always looks wrong compared to its older sibling. Better off with second hand (for a fraction of the price).
 

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,033
GAP insurance hasn't helped with valuations being basically trade prices. Why give more when the GAP insurance makes it 'alright' and paid by others.
Of course this doesn't help when cars are bought secondhand and older, although policies are still available, but become more difficult.

I've never had GAP insurance but will in future. When my M140i was rear ended I would have been well out of pocket. However fortunately it was a bolt off, bolt on new bumper and tailgate with no chassis damage. Close one.
 

rs48635

Member
Messages
3,181
just noticed the badge on driver's door so must be an executive GT. Well worth saving, contact me if you decide to let it go.
 

Alan Surrey

Member
Messages
990
Yes well spotted. It an executive GT. Massage seats, sunroof, 4 zone climate control, picnic tables and all those nice things. Good tyres, disks and sweet engine too. I really want to keep this car on the road.
 
Messages
1,117
I am unfamiliar ground here so need advice. Please, how does it work to " take a reduced scrap value, keep the wreck (now with Cat X status) and pay out of pocket for repairs."
I ask because if they decide to write it off on account of expensive new parts from Maserati, the most practical way of keeping this beautiful car on the road (beautiful underneath too, all the suspension replaced in the last 2 years) might be for me to pay a panel beater to fix it using low cost parts.
I understand from the forum - Thanks guys. I really appreciate all that you are contributing here - that I might only have 48 hours to respond, so I need to be prepared.

OK I'll try to explain. Let us assume it is deemed a total loss by the third-party insurer (who is liable in this instance) who refuse to repair it as it is uneconomical to repair. Let us put some figures to this. Car market (book) valuation (not the price paid, not the trade price, but the cost to replace it with a similar vehicle in age, mileage and condition) is £13,000.

Cost of repairs £9500 including labour and new parts (they don't consider straightening/panel beating/using used parts from wrecked salvaged cars etc).
The repair cost is now 73% of the market valuation. Let us also assume it has no structural damage.

You elect to take the scrap value (write off or total loss value offered). They pay you £13,000. They might come in a little under £13,00 and you might be able to get them to raise it a little to £13,000. The fact that you paid more than £13k is no interest to them.
The usual tactic is one challenge by you, they review their offer and come back with ONE FINAL OFFER - take it or leave it. Be prepared for that. There used to be a time when they would start low and it would go back and forth several times wasting everyone's time. Insurers have grown up and use their leverage and the good ones make one review challenge and a final counter offer (that may change from the original or may not).

Now let us say you elect to 'buy back' the scrap wreck. They will not give you the £13,000 they offered you. When you agree to their offer, the vehicle becomes theirs to do as they please - usually sell it to Copart and similar as a going concern for repairs through auctioning salvage cars or broken for parts directly or sold to a supplier who breaks cars for parts. If you buy back the wreck, they make a reduction in their offer - typically 20% but can be as high as 30% and they charge you recovery to the garage where it is laying and you have to pay for its recovery out to your premises or location of your choosing. So now your decision to buy back the wreck means they will pay you around £10,400 (20% reduction on £13,000) or £9,100 (30% reduction on £13,000) or something in-between. But the crux of it is, that they will re-classify the car as Cat X (whatever that is for an uneconomical repair with no structural damage in our assumptions).

You cannot change that classification, it will always be labelled as a Cat X car even after you repair it and will be lower value to sell and much more difficult to trade-in at a dealer.

Hopefully that explains what you wanted to understand by the term "taking a reduced scrap value".

In summary: Accept their offer (in this fictitious example) - they pay you £13,000 and they retain the wreck (to sell on, making their cost of offer lower).

Option 2: Accept their decision but elect to keep the wreck (to repair privately) - they reduce their valuation and offer you something in the range of £10,400 - £9,100 (hopefully closer to a 20% reduction than 30%). Insurance companies such as Locktons disclose their offer reduction in this instance of total loss in their policy document.

3rd option: Refuse the 3rd party insurer (at fault) decision. Make a fault claim on your insurance, pay the excess - but subject to them agreeing to repair or deem it a total loss.
They may well consider it a total loss but not guaranteed and they might agree to a repair.

Furthermore, if we changed our fictitious example to one with structural damage, the repairs may be conditional on obtaining a vis-align check and obtaining a vis-align certificate certifying that the car is now straight and within all tolerances (for which there is a fee to obtain the certificate). Vis-align certificates are only obtained through nominated stations - your run-of-the-mill MOT yard ain't gonna do it as they wont be registered with the Government for this and will lack the calibrated equipment to measure crucial tolerances.

Finally, in this situation, the decision to repair or write off is entirely dependent on the body shop inspection and dialogue between them and the 3rd party insurer. It can go either way. Better just to sit it out and wait. They do not consider that repairs can be cheaper using panel beatings and used parts - they price using new parts only.

A good specialist broker friend helped me with this with his years of dealing with insurers for prestige cars. Some cars look badly damaged and you'd swear they would be written off - but they were repaired. Others appear to have suffered very little damage and yet are written off. It is so difficult to tell visually what the decision is going to be. My wife's Micra suffered a low speed rear end shunt. I'd swear the repairs would be around £1500 max. But the Copart engineers valued the repairs at over £3k and structural damage to the floor pan versus a car book value a little over £2k. Even repairs at £1500 would still have resulted in a total loss decision. My wife was emotionally attached to her little runabout car but I told her that it is gone and to live with it. We cannot repair it - it will be a fault claim affecting premiums for the next 5 years. I consulted my specialist broker for advice - even though the car is not insured with him - his view was simple - take the money and forget repairing it yourself. It's a volume produced car, not a rare as Hen's Teeth Maserati 3500 Vignale. use their offer as a part exchange offer against the next car cos the best part ex you'd get with that Micra car is £500 and if they give you £2000 you are better off and buying another vehicle for the wife.
 
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rs48635

Member
Messages
3,181
^^^ very illuminating. Is there additional cost to buy back the "write off" from copart or whoever? Is that the 20-30% discount in the value?

Selling any QP seems to be quite an undertaking these days - let alone one with "a rating". Personally I worry about that at some point in the future, but mine is definitely a keeper. If you kept the car and got it repaired leaving an amount of ££££ then surely you are no worse off. You have the future price reduction in your pocket.