Defacing Statues

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,795
... im fed up to the teeth of our liberal left self flagellating woke section indoctrinating the younger generation to feel guilty for acts of there great grandfathers etc..........

Black people are telling me that they are not asking individual white people to feel guilty about what happened many years ago, but they are asking white people to understand and recognise that oppression continues today, and that part of that is rooted in the narrative of our history. It is just not reasonable to say, "everyone is born equal now, so you should just make what you can of your life, and forget the past", when they know that this is not true. They are asking us to recognise that spending your whole life being treated with suspicion and disdain because of an unchangeable part of how you look is a serious matter. They are picking on the most visible symbols of that past and current oppression because they are so visible.

And to say 'yes of course racial oppression is bad, but so are indoctrination, and white poverty, and the Porsche Panamera (sorry Dean) bad; and damaging property and rioting is even worse' is, I think, to say 'I have found some good excuses to deflect attention away from this important issue'. Part of the narrative in the USA a the moment is 'one bad cop does not mean the police are systemically racist and violent' but 'one looter means that the whole protest is not legitimate'.

This whole thread (and every conversation I have has about this) is all full of 'yes, but what about...', and hardly touches on the realities that black people experience, and we should be asking ourselves we are so invested in the distractions.

(Disclosure: I should add that when I say 'Black people are telling me....' that is highly deceptive, as I know almost no non-white people at all, and would be hesitant to try to have this conversation with them, so I am basing this mainly on what I have read.)
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,795
Ah my eyes! Only joking....it ain't that bad but is no looker for sure. Bet it drives well and the good thing is you don't see the outside from the inside anyway.

I like the fact it exists as creates healthy debate and reminds us what a beautiful car is and looks like. Mmm....maybe like a statue could create healthy debate....oh silly me....it just creates violance and criminal activity.

Well, to be fair, the statue has created fairly healthy debate for years, mostly along the lines of 'Well, I know he was a slave-trader but the statue is definitely not celebrating that part of his life, but his achievements as a Conservative MP and philanthropist'. and 'If you are going to put a sign up pointing out he was a slave-trader, then you need to remove the part about him having been a Conservative MP, as that looks bad.' In the end, I suppose people had enough. I'm not condoning the damage (which I suppose was criminal too) and any violence that may or may not have accompanied it. But I do understand why it came to that.

Sometimes pulling down a statue is criminal mob violence and sometimes it is a state-supported PR opportunity. Go figure.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-jul-03-na-statue3-story.html

71188
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,300
Black people are telling me that they are not asking individual white people to feel guilty about what happened many years ago, but they are asking white people to understand and recognise that oppression continues today, and that part of that is rooted in the narrative of our history. It is just not reasonable to say, "everyone is born equal now, so you should just make what you can of your life, and forget the past", when they know that this is not true. They are asking us to recognise that spending your whole life being treated with suspicion and disdain because of an unchangeable part of how you look is a serious matter. They are picking on the most visible symbols of that past and current oppression because they are so visible.

And to say 'yes of course racial oppression is bad, but so are indoctrination, and white poverty, and the Porsche Panamera (sorry Dean) bad; and damaging property and rioting is even worse' is, I think, to say 'I have found some good excuses to deflect attention away from this important issue'. Part of the narrative in the USA a the moment is 'one bad cop does not mean the police are systemically racist and violent' but 'one looter means that the whole protest is not legitimate'.

This whole thread (and every conversation I have has about this) is all full of 'yes, but what about...', and hardly touches on the realities that black people experience, and we should be asking ourselves we are so invested in the distractions.

(Disclosure: I should add that when I say 'Black people are telling me....' that is highly deceptive, as I know almost no non-white people at all, and would be hesitant to try to have this conversation with them, so I am basing this mainly on what I have read.)

1) but they are asking white people to understand and recognise that oppression continues today,
Sorry but in this country, i fail to see to or understand exactly what "oppression" you are on about , we are a statistic based society now, most government/policing policy decisions are implemented on the stats , therefore in general terms that has to be the most effective way to tackle any related problems black or white, eg stats show majority of stabbings is perpetuated by black gangs on black gangs, majority of grooming abusing children for sex is perpetuated predominantly by Asian Pakistani gangs , majority of motor insurance fraud predominantly carried out by Asian communities, .................all of the examples above are carried out by both black and white people but to have an effective policy to reduce and eradicate those trangressions effectively one would tackle the majority first to have the greatest impact . ( I wont be hoodwinked into thinking thats opression when its not )

2) (Disclosure: I should add that when I say 'Black people are telling me....' that is highly deceptive, as I know almost no non-white people at all, and would be hesitant to try to have this conversation with them, so I am basing this mainly on what I have read.)

I suggest you get out more and talk more to both sections of the black or Asian communites , to get a clearer reflection of how these sections of society think about what is happening on the ground and how they would tackle the problems that exist, their methods generally are a lot more inhumane that what a western strategy would allow.

Listening on LBC this very morning with Nick Ferarri talking to a 60 year old black caller who supported the recent demonstration and called for more to be done ,but was dumbstruck when asked the question to name just 1 country that had a more inclusive intergrated society than the UK ...........................i consider myself reasonably well travelled and although UK is not perfect we are probably the most tolerant of any other country in the world when it comes to racial eradiction
 
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MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,795
1) but they are asking white people to understand and recognise that oppression continues today,
Sorry but in this country, i fail to see to or understand exactly what "oppession" you are on about , we are a statistic based society now, most government/policing policy decisions are implemented on the stats , therefore in general terms that has to be the most effective way to tackle any related problems black or white, eg stats show majority of stabbings is perpetuated by black gangs on black gangs, majority of grooming abusing children for sex is perpetuated predominantly by Asian Pakistani gangs , majority of motor insurance fraud predominantly carried out by Asian communities, .................all of the examples above are carried out by both black and white people but to have an effective policy to reduce and eradicate those trangressions effectively one would tackle the majority first to have the greatest impact . ( I wont be hoodwinked into thinking thats opression when its not )

2) (Disclosure: I should add that when I say 'Black people are telling me....' that is highly deceptive, as I know almost no non-white people at all, and would be hesitant to try to have this conversation with them, so I am basing this mainly on what I have read.)

I suggest you get out more and talk more to both sections of the black or Asian communites , to get a clearer reflection of how these sections of society think about what is happening on the ground and how they would tackle the problems that exist, their methods generally are a lot more inhumane that what a western strategy would allow.

Listening on LBC this very morning with Nick Ferarri talking to a 60 year old black caller who supported the recent demonstration and called for more to be done ,but was dumbstruck when asked the question to name just 1 country that had a more inclusive intergrated society than the UK ...........................i consider myself reasonably well travelled and although UK is not perfect we are probably the most tolerant of any other country in the world when it comes to racial eradiction

Thanks for your response.

I don't see what talking about Asian Pakistani gangs abusing children for sex has to do with my argument that racial discrimination is a problem in the UK. Are you saying that because some asian people did bad things to some white people, that it is ok for some white people to do some bad things to some black people? Or are you saying 'inter-racial shít happens, get over it? I genuinely don't know what you are trying to say here.

You know I love data, and statistics are all very well, but again, quoting (unsourced) statistics of other bad things happening don't seem to me to mean that white people discriminating against black people doesn't happen (or happens but is ok). Below is a link is to an elegant study that shows massive discrimination in job applications based solely on 'racially-significant' names on CVs. This study showed that people with Middle Eastern and North African names needed to send 90% more job applications than people with 'white' names. Discrimination is not just about 'hurt feeling' but real practical barriers. And it's all very well to say, 'oh, just work twice as hard' or 'change your name to John Smith', but that seems like an unacceptable imposition to me.
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1299

I definitely should try to talk to more black and asian people about how they feel, if they don't mind too much. I do talk to some people of other races, and I do get a pretty good impression from quite broad reading.

But I'm really quite horrified by your claim that such people will generally propose 'more inhumane' responses to the current disturbances, based solely on their race. Seriously, I am NOT going to ask the sweet guys at the local balti house whether, because they have dark skin, they think protesters (or rioters or looters) should be treated more harshly, perhaps involving the military, or stamping people with size ten boots, etc.

I agree that the UK does indeed have better race relations (and race relations regulations) than most parts of the world, but again, I don't see why saying that somehow makes it 'problem solved'. I guess I would like us to get a bit of credit as a nation for or fairly good record of tolerance, anti-discrimination and non-violent policing, compared with others. But surely that is only reason for complacency if we are 'excellent' not just 'not as bad as the others'. We also have a much better road safety record than most, but this is not a good reason for Nick Ferarri to say 'oh well, who cares, he's dead' for the 1,800 people still being killed each year in the UK.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,300
Thanks for your response.

I don't see what talking about Asian Pakistani gangs abusing children for sex has to do with my argument that racial discrimination is a problem in the UK. Are you saying that because some asian people did bad things to some white people, that it is ok for some white people to do some bad things to some black people? Or are you saying 'inter-racial shít happens, get over it? I genuinely don't know what you are trying to say here.

You know I love data, and statistics are all very well, but again, quoting (unsourced) statistics of other bad things happening don't seem to me to mean that white people discriminating against black people doesn't happen (or happens but is ok). Below is a link is to an elegant study that shows massive discrimination in job applications based solely on 'racially-significant' names on CVs. This study showed that people with Middle Eastern and North African names needed to send 90% more job applications than people with 'white' names. Discrimination is not just about 'hurt feeling' but real practical barriers. And it's all very well to say, 'oh, just work twice as hard' or 'change your name to John Smith', but that seems like an unacceptable imposition to me.
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1299

I definitely should try to talk to more black and asian people about how they feel, if they don't mind too much. I do talk to some people of other races, and I do get a pretty good impression from quite broad reading.

But I'm really quite horrified by your claim that such people will generally propose 'more inhumane' responses to the current disturbances, based solely on their race. Seriously, I am NOT going to ask the sweet guys at the local balti house whether, because they have dark skin, they think protesters (or rioters or looters) should be treated more harshly, perhaps involving the military, or stamping people with size ten boots, etc.

I agree that the UK does indeed have better race relations (and race relations regulations) than most parts of the world, but again, I don't see why saying that somehow makes it 'problem solved'. I guess I would like us to get a bit of credit as a nation for or fairly good record of tolerance, anti-discrimination and non-violent policing, compared with others. But surely that is only reason for complacency if we are 'excellent' not just 'not as bad as the others'. We also have a much better road safety record than most, but this is not a good reason for Nick Ferarri to say 'oh well, who cares, he's dead' for the 1,800 people still being killed each year in the UK.

Mark you make some good valid points above , but seems to me your basing your preferred stance on a Utopia that doesnt and will never exist and that we as a nation would be wrong to stop at trying to achieve it,. I dont believe we as a nation are complacent as the racial discrimination card is played far too often , in many cases where it doesnt apply and shouldnt, but we have been forced or coerced in to not confronting it through fear of recriminations and all too often, ( the grooming gangs fiasco) is a good case in point which is why the govenment refuses to make the report public.

I can only address what i have seen on my travels and time spent working abroad ( mostly working in Africa with blacks not white expats ) in regards to discrimination, and i personally have witnessed discrimination by black on black and black on white on a daily basis and still do , as i am still working in Africa and about to go back next month , As with most things one naturally gauges his own performance or standards in life , or ones country standards or performance against other similar countries as an indicator of how well or badly one is performing against another, and no one to date has voiced and named a country that is more tolerant than the UK.

For proclaimers that advocate discrimination levels in the UK are out of control and are seriously affecting the lives of those minority groups, they really need to see where the bar is set higher than the UK , i find it rather ironic that those professing huge miscarriages of racial discrimination need to look either at their own countries of origin performances or that of their forebearers, it a bit pot kettle and black , no pun intended ........................... sometimes i think its blown out of proportion , of course the American problem is different to ours , but American problems shouldnt be a problem on UK streets causing huge policing costs and criminal damage
 

rossyl

Member
Messages
3,312
This whole thread (and every conversation I have has about this) is all full of 'yes, but what about...', and hardly touches on the realities that black people experience, and we should be asking ourselves we are so invested in the distractions.

Nail on head.

Mark you make some good valid points above , but seems to me your basing your preferred stance on a Utopia that doesnt and will never exist and that we as a nation would be wrong to stop at trying to achieve it,. I dont believe we as a nation are complacent as the racial discrimination card is played far too often , in many cases where it doesnt apply and shouldnt, but we have been forced or coerced in to not confronting it through fear of recriminations and all too often, ( the grooming gangs fiasco) is a good case in point which is why the govenment refuses to make the report public.

I can only address what i have seen on my travels and time spent working abroad ( mostly working in Africa with blacks not white expats ) in regards to discrimination, and i personally have witnessed discrimination by black on black and black on white on a daily basis and still do , as i am still working in Africa and about to go back next month , As with most things one naturally gauges his own performance or standards in life , or ones country standards or performance against other similar countries as an indicator of how well or badly one is performing against another, and no one to date has voiced and named a country that is more tolerant than the UK.

For proclaimers that advocate discrimination levels in the UK are out of control and are seriously affecting the lives of those minority groups, they really need to see where the bar is set higher than the UK , i find it rather ironic that those professing huge miscarriages of racial discrimination need to look either at their own countries of origin performances or that of their forebearers, it a bit pot kettle and black , no pun intended ........................... sometimes i think its blown out of proportion , of course the American problem is different to ours , but American problems shouldnt be a problem on UK streets causing huge policing costs and criminal damage

Loz,

If we continue your comparison more holistically, we should use those same certain African countries to compare with the UK more widely rather than taking this racism point in isolation.

So let's compare those certain African countries to the UK on the following:
  • the right to vote
  • education
  • the NHS
  • social housing
  • unemployment benefits
  • employment rights
  • etc etc
The UK clearly is not similar on any/many of those. The UK does not have the same society, the same laws, the same view on what is fair way to treat other people.

Here's a rather famous quote:
'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members'

By that judgment, certain African countries and the UK are very different societies, so it is futile comparing them. By that reckoning we could say, I don't know why we have a right to free expensive and quality education/healthcare, in certain African countries they do not.

If we looked at what other countries did, and used that as a reason for us not to do something, then the UK would be a very different place. The UK is a world-leading society, where people want to live, because of the ability to advance where other countries do not. Mistakes might have been made in the UK, so you recognise them, you adapt and change, society advances and we as a country benefit.

I for one was saddened by what was done to Alan Turing, but am happy that he is going to be on the £50. We've come from not socially accepting gay people, to putting them on our currency. You can still be jailed or even shot dead in other countries for being gay. Why should we look at what others are doing, and saying well "we're a little better, that's good enough"? Instead, we should assess the issue and ask what society we want to live in.

If removing Colston has the same historical significance as Emily Davison's for the women's vote then it is a worthwhile uncomfortable moment that challenges society and raises their awareness of an issue. I'm ure at the time, some thought that Ms Davison should have been back in the kitchen!


After all of the above, if you feel the need for more concrete evidence of how the UK could better itself on this specific manner: Stephen Lawrence was murdered in 1993. A report ruled the Met Police Institutionally Racist in 1997. Reviews have continued till 2014 regarding issues with race. I doubt we've cleared them all up, there's always progress to be made to make the UK an even better place to live, for all.
 
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whereskeith

Member
Messages
821
Nail on head.



Loz,

If we continue your comparison more holistically, we should use those same certain African countries to compare with the UK more widely rather than taking this racism point in isolation.

So let's compare those certain African countries to the UK on the following:
  • the right to vote
  • education
  • the NHS
  • social housing
  • unemployment benefits
  • employment rights
  • etc etc
The UK clearly is not similar on any/many of those. The UK does not have the same society, the same laws, the same view on what is fair way to treat other people.

Here's a rather famous quote:
'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members'

By that judgment, certain African countries and the UK are very different societies, so it is futile comparing them. By that reckoning we could say, I don't know why we have a right to free expensive and quality education/healthcare, in certain African countries they do not.

If we looked at what other countries did, and used that as a reason for us not to do something, then the UK would be a very different place. The UK is a world-leading society, where people want to live, because of the ability to advance where other countries do not. Mistakes might have been made in the UK, so you recognise them, you adapt and change, society advances and we as a country benefit.

I for one was saddened by what was done to Alan Turing, but am happy that he is going to be on the £50. We've come from not socially accepting gay people, to putting them on our currency. You can still be jailed or even shot dead in other countries for being gay. Why should we look at what others are doing, and saying well "we're a little better, that's good enough"? Instead, we should assess the issue and ask what society we want to live in.

If removing Colston has the same historical significance as Emily Davison's for the women's vote then it is a worthwhile uncomfortable moment that challenges society and raises their awareness of an issue. I'm ure at the time, some thought that Ms Davison should have been back in the kitchen!


After all of the above, if you feel the need for more concrete evidence of how the UK could better itself on this specific manner: Stephen Lawrence was murdered in 1993. A report ruled the Met Police Institutionally Racist in 1997. Reviews have continued till 2014 regarding issues with race. I doubt we've cleared them all up, there's always progress to be made to make the UK an even better place to live, for all.

Just out of interest how would you change the situtaton for the better ?
 

Delmonte

Member
Messages
878
1) but they are asking white people to understand and recognise that oppression continues today,
Sorry but in this country, i fail to see to or understand exactly what "oppession" you are on about , we are a statistic based society now, most government/policing policy decisions are implemented on the stats , therefore in general terms that has to be the most effective way to tackle any related problems black or white, eg stats show majority of stabbings is perpetuated by black gangs on black gangs, majority of grooming abusing children for sex is perpetuated predominantly by Asian Pakistani gangs , majority of motor insurance fraud predominantly carried out by Asian communities, .................all of the examples above are carried out by both black and white people but to have an effective policy to reduce and eradicate those trangressions effectively one would tackle the majority first to have the greatest impact . ( I wont be hoodwinked into thinking thats opression when its not )

2) (Disclosure: I should add that when I say 'Black people are telling me....' that is highly deceptive, as I know almost no non-white people at all, and would be hesitant to try to have this conversation with them, so I am basing this mainly on what I have read.)

I suggest you get out more and talk more to both sections of the black or Asian communites , to get a clearer reflection of how these sections of society think about what is happening on the ground and how they would tackle the problems that exist, their methods generally are a lot more inhumane that what a western strategy would allow.

Listening on LBC this very morning with Nick Ferarri talking to a 60 year old black caller who supported the recent demonstration and called for more to be done ,but was dumbstruck when asked the question to name just 1 country that had a more inclusive intergrated society than the UK ...........................i consider myself reasonably well travelled and although UK is not perfect we are probably the most tolerant of any other country in the world when it comes to racial eradiction

On your last point - off the top of my head, without even having to look things up, I’d give you New Zealand, Brazil, and Sweden as way in front of us in terms of racial harmony. Also Rep. of Ireland if you don’t include sectarianism, which is a different issue. I’ve lived in 2 of those countries btw
 
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whereskeith

Member
Messages
821
On your last point - off the top of my head, without even having to look things up, I’d give you New Zealand, Brazil, and Sweden as way in front of us in terms of racial harmony. Also Rep. of Ireland if you don’t include sectarianism, which is a different issue. I’ve lived in 2 of those countries btw
I can count a Brazilian and a New Zealander among my good friends and I think you are grossly misinformed... In Brazil you just wont get on the white job system if your BAME and in NZ its better but not much, Brazil still has a long way to go.
Sweden has had more terrorist bombs in the last year than any other EU country , largely from unhappy immigrants though.
 
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lozcb

Member
Messages
12,300
Nail on head.



Loz,

If we continue your comparison more holistically, we should use those same certain African countries to compare with the UK more widely rather than taking this racism point in isolation.

So let's compare those certain African countries to the UK on the following:
  • the right to vote
  • education
  • the NHS
  • social housing
  • unemployment benefits
  • employment rights
  • etc etc
The UK clearly is not similar on any/many of those. The UK does not have the same society, the same laws, the same view on what is fair way to treat other people.

Here's a rather famous quote:
'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members'

By that judgment, certain African countries and the UK are very different societies, so it is futile comparing them. By that reckoning we could say, I don't know why we have a right to free expensive and quality education/healthcare, in certain African countries they do not.

If we looked at what other countries did, and used that as a reason for us not to do something, then the UK would be a very different place. The UK is a world-leading society, where people want to live, because of the ability to advance where other countries do not. Mistakes might have been made in the UK, so you recognise them, you adapt and change, society advances and we as a country benefit.

I for one was saddened by what was done to Alan Turing, but am happy that he is going to be on the £50. We've come from not socially accepting gay people, to putting them on our currency. You can still be jailed or even shot dead in other countries for being gay. Why should we look at what others are doing, and saying well "we're a little better, that's good enough"? Instead, we should assess the issue and ask what society we want to live in.

If removing Colston has the same historical significance as Emily Davison's for the women's vote then it is a worthwhile uncomfortable moment that challenges society and raises their awareness of an issue. I'm ure at the time, some thought that Ms Davison should have been back in the kitchen!


After all of the above, if you feel the need for more concrete evidence of how the UK could better itself on this specific manner: Stephen Lawrence was murdered in 1993. A report ruled the Met Police Institutionally Racist in 1997. Reviews have continued till 2014 regarding issues with race. I doubt we've cleared them all up, there's always progress to be made to make the UK an even better place to live, for all.

Your missing my point a little, i am only talking and focussing on the racism issue , not womens rights or gay rights in this inst, I am not the middle aged Englander defending his castle lol, i love Africa and african people most of my friends and work colleagues are african, all of them would give their eyes and teeth to come here and live , and enjoy the fruits of their labour, but it appears we now have as a british society led by a leftist agenda confused about what our ancestors did into somekind of guilt that should be born by the surviving present generation ,and in America and here in recent years there are some groups advocating that we should offer some sort of compensation for the ancestors plundering of Africa which they deem as given us white privilage.

Equality and divesity laws have been changing rapidly for over 50 years in our society and more rapidly for over the last 20 years and rightly so if it improves the lives of all, but at the same time the living standards expected from a welcomed immigration should also be held to the same level as before and they plainly havent and too many people are seeing and living this on a daily basis and are too scared to speak out or tackle the problem in case that race card gets played.................the victimisation card. We as a nation are very close to the tolerance top and no one has yet mentioned another country better or higher up the scale, just re iterating we could or need to do better ........................why do we have to be the best, why do we consider ourselves to be above other nations and there fore we have to strive to improve on diversity, just perhaps let some other nations take the lead and if it works we can follow there lead. The problem is with the so called leftist liberal elite inciting a problem that is really only a minor one proven by the fact that most nations arent as tolerant as ours. If other nations are having the same problems then we would surely know about it.

In my view rightly or wrongly its just history and a point in time where that behavior was the norm and par for the course ,whether carried out by the /chinese/Ghengis khan/the romans/ hanibul/ hitler/the portugese/the spanish/the dutch/the persians/the turks., need i go on . Most have carried out some form of conquering and gained fruits and benefits for a period in history i dont see guilt being laid on these other nations only at the British and Americans..............why is it because we are too liberal? I really dont know ,

What i do know ................is that they wont be happy until the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction and will have to be brought back to a more even keel , a little like the divorce laws from the 50s through to the 90s and then swung back again as fathers became more equal another 50 years should sort it in that case, just hope there are some statues left to enjoy and the place isnt covered head to foot in Banksies
 
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lozcb

Member
Messages
12,300
I can count a Brazilian and a New Zealander among my good friends and I think you are grossly misinformed... In Brazil you just wont get on the white job system if your BAME and in NZ its better but not much, Brazil still has a long way to go.
Sweden has had more terrorist bombs in the last year than any other EU country , largely from unhappy immigrants though.

Agreed Sweden tried to hail itself as the new way forward ..................truth is its failed miserably
 

Rwc13

Member
Messages
1,668
This......nail on head. And respect to this black woman for being brave enough to say this. I’ve been keeping my own counsel on this up til now, but I would question if there was even any racist motive to the death of Floyd. Or was it just a brutal cop v a serial criminal high on drugs irrespective of skin colour. The racism card is played way too quickly and then adopted by the media because it’s news. It’s not what we think that determines racism, it’s what was in the mind of the perpetrator
 

rossyl

Member
Messages
3,312
Your missing my point a little, i am only talking and focussing on the racism issue , not womens rights or gay rights in this inst, I am not the middle aged Englander defending his castle lol, i love Africa and african people most of my friends and work colleagues are african, all of them would give their eyes and teeth to come here and live , and enjoy the fruits of their labour, but it appears we now have as a british society led by a leftist agenda confused about what our ancestors did into somekind of guilt that should be born by the surviving present generation ,and in America and here in recent years there are some groups advocating that we should offer some sort of compensation for the ancestors plundering of Africa which they deem as given us white privilage.

Equality and divesity laws have been changing rapidly for over 50 years in our society and more rapidly for over the last 20 years and rightly so if it improves the lives of all, but at the same time the living standards expected from a welcomed immigration should also be held to the same level as before and they plainly havent and too many people are seeing and living this on a daily basis and are too scared to speak out or tackle the problem in case that race card gets played.................the victimisation card. We as a nation are very close to the tolerance top and no one has yet mentioned another country better or higher up the scale, just re iterating we could or need to do better ........................why do we have to be the best, why do we consider ourselves to be above other nations and there fore we have to strive to improve on diversity, just perhaps let some other nations take the lead and if it works we can follow there lead. The problem is with the so called leftist liberal elite inciting a problem that is really only a minor one proven by the fact that most nations arent as tolerant as ours. If other nations are having the same problems then we would surely know about it.

In my view rightly or wrongly its just history and a point in time where that behavior was the norm and par for the course ,whether carried out by the /chinese/Ghengis khan/the romans/ hanibul/ hitler/the portugese/the spanish/the dutch/the persians/the turks., need i go on . Most have carried out some form of conquering and gained fruits and benefits for a period in history i dont see guilt being laid on these other nations only at the British and Americans..............why is it because we are too liberal? I really dont know ,

What i do know ................is that they wont be happy until the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction and will have to be brought back to a more even keel , a little like the divorce laws from the 50s through to the 90s and then swung back again as fathers became more equal another 50 years should sort it in that case, just hope there are some statues left to enjoy and the place isnt covered head to foot in Banksies
Apologies if I misunderstood your point. My understanding is that you are concentrating on: historical racism, the "left", compensation and a desire not to be "the best".

Comparison with Other Countries
The argument comparing us to other countries and not wanting to be the best seems disappointing, it could also be summed up as the following:

"The UK's society has structural racism, but the UK society's racism is better than the level of racism in many other countries, so that's ok"

That's hardly something to be proud of!


Countries that are better at Race Relations
Canada (where they also compensate) is most definitely better. Unfortunately, a lot of countries have issues with racism, but I am really not sure why that makes racism in the UK ok.


Historical?
The point is, this is not history. Racism currently exists in our society. However, I do not think you are able to see it. That right there is the issue. I mentioned Stephen Lawrence before, which ruled that the Met Police was institutionally racist, its not ancient.

This is not like an apology for the historical Mau Mau atrocity, it is recognition of an issue of our current society.


Left?
Left'ist. I don't know who the Left is, but Keir Starmer came out resolutely against the violence. I feel society now is far better than the one I grew up in. However, yes, I agree that there is a danger in current society of being too PC. That said, our Government has not been more Right Wing since the early/mid 90's.


Compensation
I don't think that's been mentioned in this country. However, I could imagine it being the case in Southern US states given that it's as recent as the 60s/70s that people were denied their freedom by State law.


Benefit to the Country
I think you miss the point that if we give everyone an equal chance, as best possible, then the likelihood is that we will be better off because of it.


Win
The fact that your views are as they are and the fact that they have not changed by the debate on here, does not mean that the protests are not having the desired effect.

When has racism ever been discussed on a car forum, or on this car forum, previously? Never, is my guess. Now it has got you discussing and debating, whether or not you agree, you realise that for some it is an issue. Realising it is an issue, for some, is the first step for it to change.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,300
Apologies if I misunderstood your point. My understanding is that you are concentrating on: historical racism, the "left", compensation and a desire not to be "the best".

Comparison with Other Countries
The argument comparing us to other countries and not wanting to be the best seems disappointing, it could also be summed up as the following:

"The UK's society has structural racism, but the UK society's racism is better than the level of racism in many other countries, so that's ok"

That's hardly something to be proud of!


Countries that are better at Race Relations
Canada (where they also compensate) is most definitely better. Unfortunately, a lot of countries have issues with racism, but I am really not sure why that makes racism in the UK ok.


Historical?
The point is, this is not history. Racism currently exists in our society. However, I do not think you are able to see it. That right there is the issue. I mentioned Stephen Lawrence before, which ruled that the Met Police was institutionally racist, its not ancient.

This is not like an apology for the historical Mau Mau atrocity, it is recognition of an issue of our current society.


Left?
Left'ist. I don't know who the Left is, but Keir Starmer came out resolutely against the violence. I feel society now is far better than the one I grew up in. However, yes, I agree that there is a danger in current society of being too PC. That said, our Government has not been more Right Wing since the early/mid 90's.


Compensation
I don't think that's been mentioned in this country. However, I could imagine it being the case in Southern US states given that it's as recent as the 60s/70s that people were denied their freedom by State law.


Benefit to the Country
I think you miss the point that if we give everyone an equal chance, as best possible, then the likelihood is that we will be better off because of it.


Win
The fact that your views are as they are and the fact that they have not changed by the debate on here, does not mean that the protests are not having the desired effect.

When has racism ever been discussed on a car forum, or on this car forum, previously? Never, is my guess. Now it has got you discussing and debating, whether or not you agree, you realise that for some it is an issue. Realising it is an issue, for some, is the first step for it to change.

Realising it is an issue, for some, is the first step for it to change ,.............................................. I disagree with that , just because some have an issue doesnt qualify their case in point so to invoke change, I and many others disagree with the price of road tax , and it seriously affects the quality of my life and my ability to buy more petrol , thats no reason to effect change ............thats the rules im in a minority
,
But I dont disagree with change, and its not something i have just recently given plenty of thought to as im faced with a far more extreme racial unfairness at work when dealing with officials, but the likes of this below do the British cause injustice
Fact is , its the likes of Diane Abbot that are ridiculing their own cause and these are the people who if were allowed into power would change our society beyond recognition for the minorities benefit not the majorities.....................sorry but i thought we lived in a democratic society where the focus was largely on the majority with an equal acceptance for the minority groups whether black white gay transgender or whatever, The quality of life for the majority should not be demisished for any particular minority

Political correctness agreed can be deemed by some to have gone too far , but still certain minority sections are still pushing for it to going even further something Jordan Petersen has a good take on as to the reasoning behind it
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,795
.......sorry but i thought we lived in a democratic society where the focus was largely on the majority with an equal acceptance for the minority groups whether black white gay transgender or whatever, The quality of life for the majority should not be demisished for any particular minority....

One way of viewing democracy is that the focus is largely on the majority (maybe with an equal acceptance for the minority groups). This is sometimes referred to as the 'tyranny of the majority'. I saw a great cartoon years ago where the tea lady (I said it was old) says to the people in a meeting , "Right, so that's four teas and five coffees, so that's coffee for all nine of you, then."

I'm not a fan. I think anyone with power derived from a majority (especially a slim majority) actually has a moral obligation to be extra careful to consider the wishes and needs of the minority, not a license to treat them as second-class citizens.
 

safrane

Member
Messages
16,747
Just to lighten this thread a little...

Had a private tour of Goodwood House whilst staying at Lord March's little place round the corner for Christmas.

I went with the GF and her elderly parents.

During the tour we were shown a fine paining in which the guide pointed out the slave in the corner who looked after the forefathers horses, he was depicted wearing fine clothing.

In law retorted "Oh what a lucky slave"... and clearly did not see the irony in her statement!