Defacing Statues

safrane

Member
Messages
16,748
So what are statues for?

Is it to remind us of the good that was done or the folly of our achievements?

My personal thoughts is that many should be replaces with memorials to those who did the work/dying etc rather than someone who was in charge.

A statue for the NHS and Key Workers would be a good place to start, those who brought great tech advancement (but not just the owner of the Co.)

Lets be reminded of the good that was done rather than just generals and the nobility.
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
A statue for the NHS and Key Workers would be a good place to start, those who brought great tech advancement (but not just the owner of the Co.)

That'll be the same key workers who were attacked just for doing their job at the weekend.
The whole protest lost any credibility when those 'protesters' started chanting 'f*ck the police' and started rioting.

As for statues and what they represent, whilst in the southwest, I assume those who were in Bristol will move up the road and destroy the Roman baths just up the road?

There are clearly people out there who have an agenda which is nothing to do with 'Black Lives Matter'.
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,795
Seems like there are three different questions here.

1. Should statues that memorialise / celebrate people who did bad things be removed?

2. Should protesters get to remove them by force?

3. What's up with black people? Slavery was a long time ago and nothing to do with modern Britain.

My personal view (with no facts or sources to back this up in any way) is....

1. It is a bit dangerous to try to erase our history, or to demonise people who did both good and bad things, but where a statue seems to celebrate a 'bad person' then the community should democratically consider removal, and those not bothered by the statue really should take the trouble to try to understand why other people are bothered. But I recognise that this isn't easy. There has been a long and vociferous campaign in Bristol to remove Colston, which has been resisted by people who don't seem to care about how it makes black people feel. An alternative approach is to change the message. I think it might be more useful for everybody to attach an educational message to things like this, or to install a 'counter-statue'. This was attempted with the Colston statue but resulted in more argument. https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/second-colston-statue-plaque-not-2682813

2. Criminal damage is criminal damage and should really not be condoned, but in the end people get frustrated and take action. And sometimes it is better to allow a bit of leeway than to get into violent crushing of insurrection, just to make a point about law and order, or to prioritise the value of property.

3. I used to be a bit 'I don't see colour' and 'All Lives Matter' and 'that was a long time ago', but over the past few years, I have gradually started to better understand the debilitating effects of casual, systemic (and often unconscious) racism, and to recognise the very real privilege of not having to experience that. I started to recognise that some of what is happening today is very much linked to the past, and that the symbols of the past do have an impact on both white and black perceptions and behaviours today. And we are also seeing very vividly the more extreme forms of race-based oppression, that are being highlighted in the USA at the moment. A significant influence on me was the book "Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race" by Reni Eddo-Lodge, which I expected to be an irritating whiney rant, but which turned out to be an eloquent and eye-opening challenge to many of my preconceptions. It was still irritating, but in a good way, and it took me a while to quell the 'yes but what about...' voice in my head as I was reading.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/wh...-vJVt2RiNZbaSRe6R5YAS1ajDu83r_ylsCHdK_j6HpDeY

And as a reward for reading all that blather:

71156
 

Silvercat

Member
Messages
1,166
We shouldnt forget that slavery and people trafficking is still happening in a big way today, affecting ALL ethnicities and ALL cultures, all over the world. I would much prefer it if people put their energies into addressing this discpicable trade now ( 'All lives matter') but without ignoring the historical context.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,301
Owning slaves is one thing (George Washington) but building your fortune on their trade, via enslaving, transportation of slaves (at a high attrition rate) and then selling the product of the slaves is another.
You wouldn't find a statue of Pablo Escobar or El Chapo Guzman

Agreed , values have changed so that we consider ourselves above all that now , but the truth is its still going on especially in the Middle east and Africa owning of slaves and making a profit out of the fruits of their labour , and I dont like the term (In celebration of ) given to the erection of a statue .........................its in recognition of their contribution , not a celebration, 2 totally different things in the dictionary

You wouldn't find a statue of Pablo Escobar or El Chapo Guzman ( they didnt exactly do much good for their communities in general did they to be recognised , whereas as Churchill and Colston did , albeit off the backs of others efforts,

In another 100 years it'll probably be the liberal view that working for Ford or Nissan or any company that makes a profit of others backs will be considered a slave trader lol ..........................its all of a time and an era where its considered the norm , as the pharoahs did, the chinese did the romans did, the incas/Aztecs did before the whites did , its history and impossible to erase ,
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
its all of a time and an era where its considered the norm , as the pharoahs did, the chinese did the romans did, the incas/Aztecs did before the whites did , its history and impossible to erase ,

If you start to try an erase history that you do not like, like some people would try to do, then you are in very dangerous territory.
 

midlifecrisis

Member
Messages
16,102
And these 'socialists' clearly missed a prime opportunity. All that bronze could have kept them in hummus and tofu for the next century if they weighed in the statue. Or would they themselves be profiting off the slave trade... ;)
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,301
It's not erasing history by removing a statue, it's removing the celebration of an evil act.

I also disagree with the term celebration ( where did that come from ) never heard anyone celebrating around a statue good or bad, ive always considered them in recognition of something good they have achieved , and colston did do good around Bristol .....thats a fact ...........yes he did something which was the norm back in the 1700/1800 which today is considered controversial
 
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Oneball

Member
Messages
11,075
It's not erasing history by removing a statue, it's removing the celebration of an evil act.

I worked in Bristol a few years ago, at that time the council agreed to put a sign up on Coulston’s statue detailing his part in the slave trade. Just reading the news found out they’d not done it. So I’ve changed my mind in this case, fair enough

PS you’re right MLC if this happened in Brum it’d be in the back of a Transit on the way to the scrappies now.
 

Scaf

Member
Messages
6,512
I may have missed it, but I can’t see evidence of any campaign in Bristol to remove this statue from public display ahead of vandalism over the weekend.
 
Messages
6,001
Apparently there was an on line petition to remove but that did not clear the first hurdle
So where have all these protesters sprung from? Predominantly young people out for a spot of mischief?
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
It's not erasing history by removing a statue, it's removing the celebration of an evil act.

I understand why people find Coulstons statue offensive, I get that.

But try and remove everything you are offended by it becomes about opinions. And just because you shout your opinion louder, doesn't make you right.

Also.

71159
 

whereskeith

Member
Messages
821

This post is challenging some facts and actions.
I fear the lack of arrests and codemnation for some of the behaviour (though not most) will set a precedent going forward from now on for the fringes of these events.
Hopefully some good will come out of the peaceful protests with discussions on how (if even possible) to move forward and I would be interested to hear what those people have to say in an open unpredjudiced discussion.
 

Delmonte

Member
Messages
878
Owning slaves is one thing (George Washington) but building your fortune on their trade, via enslaving, transportation of slaves (at a high attrition rate) and then selling the product of the slaves is another.
You wouldn't find a statue of Pablo Escobar or El Chapo Guzman

There are quite a few statues (and shrines, murals, memorials) of Escobar in Medellin