Brexit Deal

[lifes2short]

mind you this one sounds an interesting read as well

 

[MaserCoupe]

Yeah, this is, as I indicated, a frequent refrain in response to the 'straw man' of 'What makes us so "special?' and 'You want to have your cake and eat it'. And it would be a valid point if (a) that is what Brexiters were really saying, (b) the EU was just a club and (c) my points were about 'membership' rather than about relationships with non-members.

It is not a 'club', where you join up to accrue some particular benefits in return for your subscription. It is an 'ever-closer union' subsuming nations into a single super-state, covering all aspects of our lives.

My arguments are not about 'in the club' or 'out of the club', they are about how the 20-30 'club members' could and should interact with the 170-180 'non-members'.

So yes, it would be somewhat unreasonable to say that we want to continue to participate in EU-specific projects or institutions that are just about the EU, if we leave.

Although there are many European projects and institutions that work perfectly well, while NOT being part of the EU (like the European Space Agency, and the European Patent Office) and so there is no reason why the UK, Switzerland, etc cannot be members of various smaller 'European clubs'. It seems regrettable to me, that many people working within the EU machinery seem to think that everything 'European' must be subsumed into the one superstate, rather than just being about co-operation amongst European nations.

And, if there was some goodwill, and not a doctrinaire focus on the EU being 'everything in Europe' we could usefully continue to participate in Europol, Horizon2020, Galleio, Euratom, and loads of other good 'European projects' that have been unnecessarily set up as 'EU projects'.

But also, it is totally reasonable for the UK to expect the EU to agree what are, in effect, bi-lateral agreements on, for example travel and residence for their citizens, driving licence validity, and (yes indeed) trade. I accept that the EU might want to be a ***** about that, in order to try ti intimidate its other members (although think about that for a moment - is that the sort of club you want to be in?). And I accept that the EU might want to prioritise trade with, say, the USA, over the UK but nonetheless, the UK is about the world's sixth largest economy and the EU's businesses want to trade with the UK, and the EU's people want to travel to the UK, so both parties have both a need and a duty to get on with it.

What is almost certainly NOT reasonable, is for the UK to expect the EU to be divided within itself. So for the UK to say to the EU, for example, that French people don't need visas, but Latvian people do, would quite reasonably be unacceptable. So, yes, the EU would not want to 'undermine themselves, their trade and the integrity of the single market', and rightly so. BUT there are exceptional situations, such as Ireland and Gibraltar (and the overseas territories of France, Spain and the Netherlands, and the long eastern land borders of the EU, and Switzerland), where special rules get made. And if the EU actually cared about peace in Ireland, they would be actively working on a good solution for the NI-EU land border, rather than making it a political bargaining-chip.

Freedom of movement is a right b*tch eh! Those pesky wretched, indivisible four freedoms are a right Pain, hmmmh and Teresa’s redlines of course are really helpful to Eire, So what is your answer and solution to Northern Ireland border or lack of. Get this right and it’s winner, winner chicken dinner for you!! Genuinely interested in knowing, What would or do you want to see the E.U.27 do about something of our making. What have we missed? The ERG tell us that a yet unspecified bit of technology can sort it but they still can’t tell us what or how or when just yet. So Backstop anyone.

 

[Wattie]

I note that 2/3 Tory Mp's who have just quit represented constituencies which voted to leave the EU.

Despite being elected on a "manifesto to implement such" they themselves are remainers and have just renaged on that commitment.

As ive mentioned before "trust" in the 2 traditional parties and politicians is totally finished after this debacle- whatever ends up happening.

They're pretty naive too if they think setting up a new party is gonna wipe the slate clean after their misrepresentation and dishonesty.

 

[MarkMas]

.... So what is your answer and solution to Northern Ireland border or lack of. .....What would or do you want to see the E.U.27 do about something of our making.

I do think I have an answer, but firstly let me thank God I don't actually have to figure out all the details and try to make it work. And, my answer does depend on people having a attitude of, "Let's all make this boundary between the EU and the rest of the world (most of the world) work reasonably well" rather than "Ha, ha, you have a problem, of your own making, so **** you!".

The US-Canadian border works pretty well, by the way, with 72% of all of Canada's exports going to the USA and somehow they seem to have managed it without having to join the USA or agree to abide by any rules the US makes up for ever.

It goes like this, at the existing, soft border:
- Contraband (drugs, guns etc): continuing random searches, intelligence-led investigations, etc. But in a sense 'so what?' since these items have been crossing freely, or not, over the 'soft' border for years, what would actually change with leaving the EU? I guess the UK does not get the opportunity of a new level of protection that a 'hard' border might have provided, so just 'no change'.
- Goods (personal volumes of non-contraband goods): continuing completely free movement. Who cares whether someone buys their pies, beer or ciggies in Tesco in Newry or in Dundalk? It's not a material issue and it doesn't matter.
- Goods (commercial volumes of non-contraband goods): a bit of extra paperwork, plus some inspections at the border and elsewhere (like the US-Canada border), but in the end commercial organisations are going to mostly behave themselves if shipping volumes of stuff, so if Tesco shifts a container of pies, beer or ciggies from Newry to Dundalk, and IF there is a tariff or standards differential, they will have to be 'correct' about it.
- UK and Irish citizens: free movement at the border under existing agreements that long pre-date the existence of the EU, never mind the UK joining or leaving. But with the power on both sides of the border to stop opeole randomly and check their status - need not be frequent or onerous. And also, any reciprocal rights to live, work, etc, might have to be the same (limited or not) as between the UK and the whole of the EU, which is fine by me, and should be kinda fine by the EU. BUT, at the Irish Sea border (ships and planes, not fields and roads) there will be checks just as there are right now at airports and ports in England and Ireland, to see who you are and what rights you have.
- other EU citizens (French bankers, Romanian beggars, whatever): as above, but with a little lecture about the different rights that may exist each side of the NI border. AND stronger checks at the North Sea.
- non-EU citizens (Syrian refugees, Nigerian bank managers, whatever): as above, so freely able to pass through the 'soft' boarder. BUT remember they have to get to the Republic first, which is not at all easy, either physically or because the Republic is not in Schengenland, so they already carry our immigration checks at ports and airports, and return such people to their embarkation country (inside or outside the EU where possible). AND stronger checks at the North Sea.
See also:
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/brexit-deal.27598/page-86#post-675528
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/brexit-deal.27598/page-87#post-675600

 

[MaserCoupe]

I do think I have an answer, but firstly let me thank God I don't actually have to figure out all the details and try to make it work. And, my answer does depend on people having a attitude of, "Let's all make this boundary between the EU and the rest of the world (most of the world) work reasonably well" rather than "Ha, ha, you have a problem, of your own making, so **** you!".

The US-Canadian border works pretty well, by the way, with 72% of all of Canada's exports going to the USA and somehow they seem to have managed it without having to join the USA or agree to abide by any rules the US makes up for ever.

It goes like this, at the existing, soft border:
- Contraband (drugs, guns etc): continuing random searches, intelligence-led investigations, etc. But in a sense 'so what?' since these items have been crossing freely, or not, over the 'soft' border for years, what would actually change with leaving the EU? I guess the UK does not get the opportunity of a new level of protection that a 'hard' border might have provided, so just 'no change'.
- Goods (personal volumes of non-contraband goods): continuing completely free movement. Who cares whether someone buys their pies, beer or ciggies in Tesco in Newry or in Dundalk? It's not a material issue and it doesn't matter.
- Goods (commercial volumes of non-contraband goods): a bit of extra paperwork, plus some inspections at the border and elsewhere (like the US-Canada border), but in the end commercial organisations are going to mostly behave themselves if shipping volumes of stuff, so if Tesco shifts a container of pies, beer or ciggies from Newry to Dundalk, and IF there is a tariff or standards differential, they will have to be 'correct' about it.
- UK and Irish citizens: free movement at the border under existing agreements that long pre-date the existence of the EU, never mind the UK joining or leaving. But with the power on both sides of the border to stop opeole randomly and check their status - need not be frequent or onerous. And also, any reciprocal rights to live, work, etc, might have to be the same (limited or not) as between the UK and the whole of the EU, which is fine by me, and should be kinda fine by the EU. BUT, at the Irish Sea border (ships and planes, not fields and roads) there will be checks just as there are right now at airports and ports in England and Ireland, to see who you are and what rights you have.
- other EU citizens (French bankers, Romanian beggars, whatever): as above, but with a little lecture about the different rights that may exist each side of the NI border. AND stronger checks at the North Sea.
- non-EU citizens (Syrian refugees, Nigerian bank managers, whatever): as above, so freely able to pass through the 'soft' boarder. BUT remember they have to get to the Republic first, which is not at all easy, either physically or because the Republic is not in Schengenland, so they already carry our immigration checks at ports and airports, and return such people to their embarkation country (inside or outside the EU where possible). AND stronger checks at the North Sea.
See also:
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/brexit-deal.27598/page-86#post-675528
https://www.sportsmaserati.com/index.php?threads/brexit-deal.27598/page-87#post-675600

With families living either side and who traverse unencumbered, it is unlikely they’ll now be required to have their freedom of movement or status changed. It’s more likely that we will see a unified Eire with a border down the Irish Sea.

 

[MarkMas]

With families living either side and who traverse unencumbered, it is unlikely they’ll now be required to have their freedom of movement or status changed.

Well, that is ideal, and possible.

It’s more likely that we will see a unified Eire with a border down the Irish Sea.

That is possible. It was certainly the EU's mission to make national borders within the EU seem irrelevant, but there is still strong (and probably lasting) resistance in the North to rule from Dublin. In Scotland, there seems to be some enthusiasm for being ruled from Brussels, as long as it is not from London!

 

[rivarama]

They're pretty naive too if they think setting up a new party is gonna wipe the slate clean after their misrepresentation and dishonesty.

You will actually find that human beings have a terrible memory...

 

[Wanderer]

With families living either side and who traverse unencumbered, it is unlikely they’ll now be required to have their freedom of movement or status changed. It’s more likely that we will see a unified Eire with a border down the Irish Sea.

Can’t see the North being willing to pay 4x road tax, 4x car insurance, paying to see the GP, no prescription subsidy, higher tax (**** USC), and motorway tolls.
More chance of the wee three joining the six for a unified Ulster in UK!

 

[Wattie]

Another step closer to my individual remain in Europe plan, wife and children now registered in Ireland, which means the children can take up their places in school after the summer. Spent the week looking at houses and based on what we have seen might be putting our UK house up for sale in the next few weeks.

As an example, selling ours and paying off the mortgage would allow us to but something like this outright (including us tripling the size of the garage).

https://www.daft.ie/11783226

View attachment 54694

In the interests of honesty, integrity and because I value the forum I have a confession to make.

 

[lifes2short]

anyone remember this classic scene

 

[MarkMas]

Pinched from Twitter.

Sony
Dyson
Panasonic
Lloyds
Unilever
Goldman Sachs
......

But apparently, it’s got nothing to do with Brexit.

Sorry to come back to this, but I have been researching this, a bit, as it was also posted on Facebook.

Sony
is moving its legal presence to Amsterdam (which I suppose might have a tax implication). The Independent reported that, "The relocation will have no impact on personnel and operations in the UK"
Dyson
is creating a new legal presence in Singapore to give a new focus on the Asian market, especially for electric cars, but this will have no impact on their main manufacturing centre (which has been in Malaysia for years) or on their research and main corporate office in Malmesbury, and is indeed nothing to do with Brexit.
Panasonic
is moving its legal presence to Amsterdam (which I suppose might have a tax implication). The Independent reported that, "Of the 20 to 30 people employed at the London office, the 10 to 20 who handle auditing and financial operations will be moved to the Netherlands."
etc etc

Yes, some of these things are Brexit-related and some are not, and some are significant (Honda) and some are not (Panasonic), but once again, it is confirmation bias that causes ardent Remainers to compile long lists of mostly trivial or irrelevant 'big names' and pass them off as 'UK Brexit disasters'. The loss of 10 accountancy jobs being characterised as "Brexit costs the UK Panasonic" is just misinformation and propaganda.

 

[allandwf]

I just saw them referred to as remaniacs which brought a chuckle Makes a change from remoaners I suppose.

 

[2b1ask1]

I like that Allan; I’ll try to remember to use it.

 

[lifes2short]

enjoy, the chicks aren't bad either

 

[philw696]

 

[midlifecrisis]

As a moderator, I'm inclined to rename this thread the Circular Argument and Mock Politicians In The UK Parliament Thread ...

Or CAMPITUP for short...

 

[MaserCoupe]

Brexiteers Remainers EXtolling Idiological Tripe? That could be a great title.....

Or shall we have more on Boobies, Breakfast preferences, Virtues of Gold, the pros and cons of an Irish Border or lack of and how it can be implemented without affecting those who actually live there.....Oh lets not forget the doubling down on the Brexit Belief drivel even when the facts are laid out.............But of course everyone knew what they were voting for and of course we weren't lied to, of course the vote was legitimate and not tainted or broke any electoral laws. Oh no, I Didn't mean you Mr foreigner, no you're alright you can stay, I wasn't voting for that, I was voting for a change, It was because of all those "E.U bullies" and that imaginary superstate EUSSR that we don't want, because apparently we don't have a say or a vote or a veto or anything because its all their fault for the problems of me and my country........What's that you say, 70 years of peace oh yes to heck with that, don't care about that, I just want out and to heck with having to think about it and problem solve!!! Oh yes that's it!!! Keep calm and carry on......And defo Scone,Cream then jam and filtered "foreign coffee not that instant crappolla"!

Otherwise yes lets just call it the Circular Argument and Mock Politicians in the UK Parliament...

 

[MarkMas]

.......What's that you say, 70 years of peace oh yes to heck with that, don't care about that...

So much to engage with, but I'll just go with this one.
Although there have been no major wars in Europe since 1945 (apart from the Balkans, obvio), there is really nothing to justify the claim that conflicts have somehow been prevented by the EU. Firstly it relies on a logical fallacy of mistaking correlation for connection, and on linking the absence of something to the presence of something unrelated (see joke below). Secondly, there are plenty of examples of nations not going to war with each other in the past 70 years despite not being in any kind of union. Thirdly, there are plenty of examples where being in a union has indeed prevented warfare, but only by means of authoritarian suppression which if removed results in unresolved tensions immediately turning into war (Yugoslavia, Iraq, USSR, Rwanda....)

The joke:

A woman is sitting on a Eurostar train opposite another passenger who is reading a copy of The European. Every time he finishes reading a page, he folds it reverently into a little square and throws it out of the window. Perplexed, the woman asks what he is doing.
“Ah,” says the man, “It's a trick I learned in Africa. Keeps the elephants off the line, you see.”
“But there aren’t any elephants!”, says the woman.
“Yes, indeed. It works really well, doesn’t it?” he replies.

 

[lifes2short]

As a moderator, I'm inclined to rename this thread the Circular Argument and Mock Politicians In The UK Parliament Thread ...

Or CAMPITUP for short...

you forgot the titis

 

[midlifecrisis]

you forgot the titis

They're the ones who take this thread very seriously....

Cue tirade...