Brexit Deal

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,075
A healthy democracy respects the decisions made by the people .
Those elected stood to uphold that and said they would respect and inforce.
Full stop.
If democracy depends on a result you wish for........it isn’t democracy.
( till now I respect May for at least upholding that) but

You’re confusing democracy with political stupidity, incompetence, bias, dishonesty and nativity.

The inability to produce a deal via incompetence ( from an Eu group that doesn’t deal) isn’t a reason to stop the result.

Any future referendum on the deal should be restricted to Mays deal Or no deal.

Anything else is a betrayal of a previous result and almost 18m ( the biggest turnout in a polls history) will never trust politicians again

It’s been almost 3 years since the referendum, we’ve often had less time between general elections. Or should we do what Germany did in ‘33 and outlaw the parties that didn’t win the previous election. After all the people decided they didn’t want Labour.

You’re confusing your pie in the sky idea of Brexit with the reality that was predicted by many and branded as “Project Fear” by those who wanted leave.

We’re leaving, it’s going to be a cluster f k, you voted for it, stop moaning.

PS I still love you too.

PPS but I’m right ;)
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
So many people voted leave or remain for totally the wrong reasons

I had a plumber round the other day who said he voted to leave because he wants to see lower house prices and the government to build more social housing... o...k

I don't want to see another referendum because if they did the vote again and the "will of the people" has suddenly changed to remain then it will cause yet more chaos - not stability - it would show not just the politicians that caused this did not know what they were doing but also the people who went to the ballets.
There was one chap on the news voted remain cos he wanted to keep the British plug.

FFS, I once said people should only be allowed to vote if they’ve passed some sort of test that would prove they’ve at least a basic understanding of what they being asked to express an opinion on.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,951
Meh. Its a clusterf$*k whatever happens.

If we have a second vote and the result changes those that didn't change their mind will moan. If we don't and press on and leave the economy will go to sh*t because we have a government that couldn't negotiate their way out of a wet paper bag.

At no point with those responsible for the issues of the country, our elected representatives in Westminster, be held to account by the electorate. We will continue to listen to them as they excuse themselves by blaming the EU for the deal/no-deal, or Globalisation, or Amazon, or Google, or whoever the f&*k they decide they can blame this week. Most of you lot will lap it up because its easier to blame everyone else than take a look at what we are doing to ourselves as a country.

The biggest problem with this whole sh*t show is that so much other stuff has got conflated into the Brexit debate and the blame being put on 'faceless unelected EU officials' when it should more rightly have been targeted closer to home.

  • Immigration - Successive governments not implementing available rules and pretty much ignoring the issue
  • Job losses - Successive governments concentrating on metrics and how things look on paper rather than looking to find solutions
  • Austerity - Tory party policy to placate their donors by giving them tax breaks on the back of everyone else in the country. Also the false portrayal of country economies needing to be managed in the same way a household budget is. Big business doesn't work this way, why should a country?
  • NHS - see Austerity. Ideological drive to privatise and divert money to donors.
  • Education - see NHS
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
I was saying to a mate the other day, that the "will of the people" isn't a good enough reason to leave the EU if the logic says it will be an absolute clusterfuck, and we will all be much poorer for years and years.

His response was that 52% voted for leaving so thats what should happen, even though he admitted it wasn't 52% of the population.

In return I said that if there was a vote that said anyone who supports Orient (like he does) should be executed because of their allegiance to the club, and 52% of those that voted said "yes" should that vote still stand as it was the "will of the people".

Obviously the answer is no, as the logic says that executing someone based on their football team is absurd. Except for when you are talking about Spurs.

The same logic should be applied to Brexit, especially with all of the lies told on both sides.

Park Article 50 for a few months whilst we get some independent experts in to do the sums.
If it's still a good idea then proceed with leaving, if it's financial suicide then park it permanently.

Either way we will have some answers rather than political posturing by MP's trying to further their own political career or fill their back pockets.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
It’s been almost 3 years since the referendum, we’ve often had less time between general elections. Or should we do what Germany did in ‘33 and outlaw the parties that didn’t win the previous election. After all the people decided they didn’t want Labour.

You’re confusing your pie in the sky idea of Brexit with the reality that was predicted by many and branded as “Project Fear” by those who wanted leave.

We’re leaving, it’s going to be a cluster f k, you voted for it, stop moaning.

PS I still love you too.

PPS but I’m right ;)
Firstly I still love u too.
Brexit was many thing to many people. Every individual had their vision of “pie in the sky”

Some voted on emotion, not statistics. The average individual didn’t have a financial gain....just a ‘moral’ one. I may have a bigger opportunity if we regain control......

This forum is a fortunate few with a budget to extend to luxuries that not many can aspire to.
Regardless
Some voted on unity.
Some voted on sovereignty,
Some voted on compassion.
Some vote on selfishness.
Some voted on ideals.
Some vote on realism.
We all had an opportunity to vote and we were all confident the outcome would be upheld.

Legally we were promised that the decision would be upheld.....by those we elected and trust.

Hindsight is never a factor in anything.....otherwise reality will be delayed.

Incompetence is not an excuse. If results are not implemented as per the will of the people nothing should proceed until they are
 

midlifecrisis

Member
Messages
16,102
Either way, it's a huge cluster...

btw We live in a parliamentary democracy, we vote, we expect parliament to make the difficult decisions but be accountable for them. Why they came to the people on such a contentious issue was wrong in the first place. That's why the UK doesn't (or didn't) do Referendums.

Ironically 52% (325/(306+325)) of the House of Commons has confidence in the Government but 68% didn't want May's Brexit deal. So with Comrade Corbyn and Vintage Cable saying that the 'no-deal' brexit is not an option, the remainers will have their way.
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,554
I was saying to a mate the other day, that the "will of the people" isn't a good enough reason to leave the EU if the logic says it will be an absolute clusterfuck, and we will all be much poorer for years and years..

Who's logic? Yours? As successful as you are (which I greatly respect) clearly favour remain.

Other people whose views are *probably* well informed

James Dyson
Jim Ratcliff (Chairman and founder of Ineos)
Dame Helena Morrissey (Head of personal investment at L+G)
Anthony Bamford (Chairman of JCB)
Tim Martin (Chairman of JD WEtherspoon)
Simon Wolfson (Chairman of Next)

All of whom seem reasonably capable of running a successful business and are might reasonably be considered to be well informed in their own field.

Just from the first article I found. I'm not saying they're *right*. I'm not qualified to do so. (Which is not the same as not having an opinion) But to pretend that there is only one logical view point might be considered potentially naive. I would be very careful about saying they are wrong in public :)

Now if we were to say 'the will of the people isn't a good enough reason to leave the EU if my opinion says it will be an absolute clusterfuck..) we're in a very different place.

C
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,554
Either way, it's a huge cluster...

btw We live in a parliamentary democracy, we vote, we expect parliament to make the difficult decisions but be accountable for them. Why they came to the people on such a contentious issue was wrong in the first place. That's why the UK doesn't (or didn't) do Referendums.

Ironically 52% (325/(306+325)) of the House of Commons has confidence in the Government but 68% didn't want May's Brexit deal. So with Comrade Corbyn and Vintage Cable saying that the 'no-deal' brexit is not an option, the remainers will have their way.

I don't think the logic stacks up. Past actions vs future ones.

C
 

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,075
Legally we were promised that the decision would be upheld.....by those we elected and trust.

Legally we weren’t promised anything. The referendum had no standing in U.K. Law.

I do agree that the government of the time promised to abide by the referendum. However speaking purely as devil’s advocate, we no longer have that Government.

I don’t believe anything other than us leaving the EU will happen in March and I’m yet to be convinced that any other option is preferable at the moment.

I just hope the Civil Service has done what it’s quite good at and put plans in place for that eventuality.
 
Messages
6,001
Still want to leave.
I am not the same as the Europeans I am different to them and it is not based on liking or disliking them it is based on my view of a future Britain. I could be wrong but am prepared to go that road until it is apparent I am wrong and then (only then) I may change my views.
We all make decisions with the best intentions sometimes they work other times they do not so we amend when we know it has gone pear shaped
 

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
Who's logic? Yours? As successful as you are (which I greatly respect) clearly favour remain.

Other people whose views are *probably* well informed

James Dyson
Jim Ratcliff (Chairman and founder of Ineos)
Dame Helena Morrissey (Head of personal investment at L+G)
Anthony Bamford (Chairman of JCB)
Tim Martin (Chairman of JD WEtherspoon)
Simon Wolfson (Chairman of Next)

C

Of that lot the only one who's opinion I value is Anthony Bamford. Having met him once at a friends wedding.
Very nice chap he is too.

However, they all have their reasons why leaving is a good idea, James Dyson, to sell more in the USA, Helena Morrissey, fluctuation in the markets make them more money, and they look after very rich peoples money (who also benefit due to tax breaks). Anthony Bamford JCB can try and break CAT's stranglehold on the USA if we are out of the EU same as Dyson.
Tim Martin is just a drunk who hasn't a clue. Anyone who saw him on Question Time before Christmas can see that. He does know, that the more the economy goes down the pan, the more people spend in his awful pubs. Bet he still sell, Stella, Kronnenbourg, and French, Spanish and German wines though.....
Simon Wolfson is looking for a reason to cover the fact that Next's profits are going south and us leaving the EU is perfect to cover up his failings.

All in my opinion of course, I'm sure a leaver can counter every argument I've put there.
 

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,075
Of that lot the only one who's opinion I value is Anthony Bamford. Having met him once at a friends wedding.
Very nice chap he is too.

However, they all have their reasons why leaving is a good idea, James Dyson, to sell more in the USA, Helena Morrissey, fluctuation in the markets make them more money, and they look after very rich peoples money (who also benefit due to tax breaks). Anthony Bamford JCB can try and break CAT's stranglehold on the USA if we are out of the EU same as Dyson.
Tim Martin is just a drunk who hasn't a clue. Anyone who saw him on Question Time before Christmas can see that. He does know, that the more the economy goes down the pan, the more people spend in his awful pubs. Bet he still sell, Stella, Kronnenbourg, and French, Spanish and German wines though.....
Simon Wolfson is looking for a reason to cover the fact that Next's profits are going south and us leaving the EU is perfect to cover up his failings.

All in my opinion of course, I'm sure a leaver can counter every argument I've put there.


About 15 years ago JCB were given a massive fine by the EU for breaking trade and competition laws.
 

midlifecrisis

Member
Messages
16,102
So why would a manufacturer want to leave the EU?
Potentially lower employment costs if they could get the government to scrap minimum wage? Minimum wage isn't an EU regulation.
Import duties or raw materials would be higher unless we went 'Norway'
Likewise Export duties would be higher...

Please educate me on this.
 

Felonious Crud

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,013
I vote that we take it in turns to annoy Wattie. I like how it makes him type in asterisks. I'll go first. Geoff, you're next.

The gold market is a conspiracy and the value of gold over the last 50 years has been artificially throttled by successive hostile foreign governments under the control of a secret band of business people, probably German ones. Or French, or something like that. Anyone who buys gold is an idiot and must only pay in ZAR and sell in AUD, or barter for chickens. It's ****. Gold does not exist.
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,554
I vote that we take it in turns to annoy Wattie. I like how it makes him type in asterisks. I'll go first. Geoff, you're next.

The gold market is a conspiracy and the value of gold over the last 50 years has been artificially throttled by successive hostile foreign governments under the control of a secret band of business people, probably German ones. Or French, or something like that. Anyone who buys gold is an idiot and must only pay in ZAR and sell in AUD, or barter for chickens. It's ****. Gold does not exist.

:lol2:

C
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,554
So why would a manufacturer want to leave the EU?
Potentially lower employment costs if they could get the government to scrap minimum wage? Minimum wage isn't an EU regulation.
Import duties or raw materials would be higher unless we went 'Norway'
Likewise Export duties would be higher...

Please educate me on this.

I think you'd *probably* need to ask a manufacturer that wants to leave the EU but....surely import duties or raw materials *might* be higher. Or might they be lower if being outside the EU regulations allowed import from a non-EU country at a lower rate. Ditto export if you're not exporting to the EU. Just a thought like, but I don't really know.

C
 

MaserCoupe

Member
Messages
564
You may well be waiting a while for an answer bud.....Have a look at who the E.U already trades with outside the current 28 (that includes us the U.K.) countries in the union. It’s impressive........
 

lifes2short

Member
Messages
5,821
I vote that we take it in turns to annoy Wattie. I like how it makes him type in asterisks. I'll go first. Geoff, you're next.

The gold market is a conspiracy and the value of gold over the last 50 years has been artificially throttled by successive hostile foreign governments under the control of a secret band of business people, probably German ones. Or French, or something like that. Anyone who buys gold is an idiot and must only pay in ZAR and sell in AUD, or barter for chickens. It's ****. Gold does not exist.

:saifi:
 

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,075
So why would a manufacturer want to leave the EU?
Potentially lower employment costs if they could get the government to scrap minimum wage? Minimum wage isn't an EU regulation.
Import duties or raw materials would be higher unless we went 'Norway'
Likewise Export duties would be higher...

Please educate me on this.

In the case of JCB the EU imposes high tariffs on the import of steel from China. Reciprocally there are high import duties for cars and heavy plant. The same is true for other parts of the world.

JCB’s biggest export markets are outside the EU.


I would imagine that the thinking is that these tariffs could be reduced if the UK wasn’t part of the EU and could negotiate its own treaties.


PS the price of gold is fixed by the US and other countries such as Nigeria, the Poles also have quite a say which is why precious metals should be traded in Zloty.