Brexit Deal

[philw696]

For every £26 a tax payers contributions it estimated they get back a £160 to £200.
I'm no scholar but to me we had it good in the EU.

 

[Rwc13]

I would have said the opposite actually Dave. I see very little in the papers which says what a bad idea leaving is. The whole reason 17m voted out was based on what they read in the papers and saw on that big red bus!

If anyone had done their research they would have agreed with 99% of the worlds economists who said leaving was financial suicide.

I’m not sure leavers have ever suggested that their desire to leave was based purely on financial parameters. For leavers, there were I understand a great many non-financial reasons, eg to stop “unelected” EU politicians meddling in matters that should be decided exclusively in the UK.

 

[Wanderer]

So for once in its miserable life the ECJ moved with lightning speed to adjudicate, then publicly announce its decision the very day before our Parliament was due to vote on the Brexit deal, and that's coincidence? It has smoke, mirrors, and political expediency written all over it. Now it is reported that Tusk says there can be no renegotiation of the deal, but he apparently says there could be further discussion over its implementation.

It ain't over until the size-challenged gender-neutral entity makes music, and there's no sign of that yet, innit?

PH

If u m

If there are plenty of facts to promote leave, give us a couple...

We can get our borders back, regain our sovereignty, build more big warships, become a World Power again, colonise a quarter of the Globe like we did before.

 

[MaserCoupe]

Interesting......So this is about accountability, democracy and transparency. So who elected the people who run the WTO? I'm sure there was nothing on the referendum about voting to join it?

 

[Phil the Brit]

I think the EU need us more than we need them don’t you?

In 2016 the UK government paid £13.1 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4.5 billion. So the UK's 'net contribution' was estimated at about £8.6 billion.

In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).

They can get stuffed over the £39 billion.
I think BMW, Mercedes, VW et all will still be keen to trade no matter what the outcome is.

 

[Rwc13]

For every £26 a tax payers contributions it estimated they get back a £160 to £200.
I'm no scholar but to me we had it good in the EU.

Where does this come from?

In absolute financial terms we make a net payment to the EU each year of £7.5- 9bn depending on whether you include things like specifically targeted EU research grants to UK “businesses”

The question then is are the non-direct financial and other benefits of EU membership positive or negative relative to the UK being on its own. Clearly whoever came up with the above statistic thinks they are worth a great deal, like 6-8 times as much as we pay.

Hmmm, would love to audit that calculation

 

[Rwc13]

Interesting......So this is about accountability, democracy and transparency. So who elected the people who run the WTO? I'm sure there was nothing on the referendum about voting to join it?

But they don’t get involved in politics or immigration or what we are allowed to call things these days. They just agree some standardised global trading rules.

 

[Oneball]

I think the EU need us more than we need them don’t you?
In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).

They can get stuffed over the £39 billion.
I think BMW, Mercedes, VW et all will still be keen to trade no matter what the outcome is.

44% of our exports got to the EU but only 16% of the EU’s exports come to us.

Don’t think that looks like they need us more than we need them and whether they need us or not isn’t a reason to stay or leave.

 

[conaero]

I think the EU need us more than we need them don’t you?

In 2016 the UK government paid £13.1 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4.5 billion. So the UK's 'net contribution' was estimated at about £8.6 billion.

In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).

They can get stuffed over the £39 billion.
I think BMW, Mercedes, VW et all will still be keen to trade no matter what the outcome is.

44% of our exports got to the EU but only 16% of the EU’s exports come to us.

Don’t think that looks like they need us more than we need them and whether they need us or not isn’t a reason to stay or leave.

For the benefit of those on here, could you both post your source as I think its a great idea to have the facts on this one, thanks.

 

[JonW]

Facts?

FACTS?

FACTS?

How dare any of you attempt to bring FACTS into this debate?

No, no, NO.... we don’t need FACTS here - none of that foreign nonsense here thank you very much...

We just need yet more biased political rhetoric, and hot air and bullsh1t. That will sort this out much quicker than trying to introduce FACTS for **** sake...

 

[Oneball]

For the benefit of those on here, could you both post your source as I think its a great idea to have the facts on this one, thanks.

www.fullfact.org for 2017

Phil the Brit’s figures for exports are correct for 2017 too according to the same site. It’s just typical of what you see from both sides, they use statistics that look relevant but aren’t. The fact that we import more than we export to the EU is irrelevant to them, it’s the actually size of those in relation to their economy that’s important.

 

[Oneball]

Facts?

FACTS?

FACTS?

How dare any of you attempt to bring FACTS into this debate?

No, no, NO.... we don’t need FACTS here - none of that foreign nonsense here thank you very much...

We just need yet more biased political rhetoric, and hot air and bullsh1t. That will sort this out much quicker than trying to introduce FACTS for **** sake...

Sorry my fault! What caused the last thread slip? Teenage crushes....

 

[Rwc13]

www.fullfact.org for 2017

Phil the Brit’s figures for exports are correct for 2017 too according to the same site. It’s just typical of what you see from both sides, they use statistics that look relevant but aren’t. The fact that we import more than we export to the EU is irrelevant to them, it’s the actually size of those in relation to their economy that’s important.

Agree, although in reality you need to go down a layer from an EU perspective to individual countries to see a truer picture of how important we are to certain of the larger more powerful economies in the EU. A rather different picture then emerges.

But as Oneball says, statistics can be made to support most arguments and that is what we have seen happening in the Brexit debate. The fact that some of the statistics put foward by both sides have been known to be fundamentally flawed by their promoters is what I find so shameful.

Being in semi-retirement now, I’ve watched quite a bit of the Brexit debate in Parliament over recent days and it makes incredibly uncomfortable viewing. The number of questions/challenges that are clearly wrong but politically motivated is quite scary. And the whole approach to debating in Parliament is clearly no longer fit for purpose in a modern democracy. Frankly, somebody needs to pull the whole UK electoral and political process down and build something modern that is fit for purpose so that “politicians” can genuinely focus on what is for the greater good rather than what furthers their own personal or party ambitions.

 

[Wanderer]

Agree, although in reality you need to go down a layer from an EU perspective to individual countries to see a truer picture of how important we are to certain of the larger more powerful economies in the EU. A rather different picture then emerges.

But as Oneball says, statistics can be made to support most arguments and that is what we have seen happening in the Brexit debate. The fact that some of the statistics put foward by both sides have been known to be fundamentally flawed by their promoters is what I find so shameful.

Being in semi-retirement now, I’ve watched quite a bit of the Brexit debate in Parliament over recent days and it makes incredibly uncomfortable viewing. The number of questions/challenges that are clearly wrong but politically motivated is quite scary. And the whole approach to debating in Parliament is clearly no longer fit for purpose in a modern democracy. Frankly, somebody needs to pull the whole UK electoral and political process down and build something modern that is fit for purpose so that “politicians” can genuinely focus on what is for the greater good rather than what furthers their own personal or party ambitions.

Reminds me a barristers defending serial killers they know to be guilty.

 

[Phil the Brit]

44% of our exports got to the EU but only 16% of the EU’s exports come to us.

Don’t think that looks like they need us more than we need them and whether they need us or not isn’t a reason to stay or leave.

Where do you get the 16% figure from?
Also a net purchase of £341 billion against a net sales of £274 still means a net import difference of £67 billion to the EU's favour.

 

[Phil the Brit]

For the benefit of those on here, could you both post your source as I think its a great idea to have the facts on this one, thanks.

My facts just came from a simple Google search.............
https://www.google.com/search?clien.....0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.zFLyT2b2Awg

 

[Oneball]

Where do you get the 16% figure from?
Also a net purchase of £341 billion against a net sales of £274 still means a net import difference of £67 billion to the EU's favour.

www.fullfact.org the same place your figures come from.

 

[Phil the Brit]

Agree, although in reality you need to go down a layer from an EU perspective to individual countries to see a truer picture of how important we are to certain of the larger more powerful economies in the EU. A rather different picture then emerges.

But as Oneball says, statistics can be made to support most arguments and that is what we have seen happening in the Brexit debate. The fact that some of the statistics put foward by both sides have been known to be fundamentally flawed by their promoters is what I find so shameful.

Being in semi-retirement now, I’ve watched quite a bit of the Brexit debate in Parliament over recent days and it makes incredibly uncomfortable viewing. The number of questions/challenges that are clearly wrong but politically motivated is quite scary. And the whole approach to debating in Parliament is clearly no longer fit for purpose in a modern democracy. Frankly, somebody needs to pull the whole UK electoral and political process down and build something modern that is fit for purpose so that “politicians” can genuinely focus on what is for the greater good rather than what furthers their own personal or party ambitions.

You are so right. Myself, also being retired recently and quite frankly bored in the midst of winter when I can't polish a car,can concur exactly with your summarization on the Commons and their proceedures. A complete joke.

 

[daverichardson]

If there are plenty of facts to promote leave, give us a couple...

Well that way lays madness, I found in the Referendum lead up every argument put up by the leavers was countered by an equally valid argument to remain. Turns out there were untruths on both sides.
I have been around a while and know not to believe most politicians most of the time so I made my choice (leave or remain) based on other factors that I am comfortable with. These may or may not fit with other peoples ideas but they are mine and equally valid Hence the need for a referendum
It has been quoted many times that younger people have been screwed by the older generation (Vince Cable) etc. Well the Referendum was held at the same time as Glastonbury where a lot of the young set chose to go rather than exercise their democratic right - regardless of postal votes and the like. They are now unhappy and want a re run because they did not get their way and as for the argument that the older set will not be around over the next 20 years or so is nonsense

 

[Oneball]

Well that way lays madness, I found in the Referendum lead up every argument put up by the leavers was countered by an equally valid argument to remain. Turns out there were untruths on both sides.
I have been around a while and know not to believe most politicians most of the time so I made my choice (leave or remain) based on other factors that I am comfortable with. These may or may not fit with other peoples ideas but they are mine and equally valid Hence the need for a referendum
It has been quoted many times that younger people have been screwed by the older generation (Vince Cable) etc. Well the Referendum was held at the same time as Glastonbury where a lot of the young set chose to go rather than exercise their democratic right - regardless of postal votes and the like. They are now unhappy and want a re run because they did not get their way and as for the argument that the older set will not be around over the next 20 years or so is nonsense

It’s strikes me you and I took the same information given to us and came to the same conclusion, that it was generally bunkum. We then made a different but equally valid decision.

Rightly or wrongly those of us who feel we were betrayed by the older generation (we don’t mean Vince we mean the voters) do so because we feel they are being isolationist, colonialist and don’t understand the need for humanity to act together.