Brexit Deal

bigbob

Member
Messages
8,952
I've said it before Brexit just won't happen. May's deal will be binned by Parliament, there will be a second referendum, with actual facts rather than lies on the table and the British public will vote to stay in.

The Brexit brigade will complain that it is undemocratic and the original vote should still stand (based on what we now know to be utter lies).
But we vote for a new Government every few years so wheres the difference?

As for Sovereignty, we already have control of our borders, being an island helps that no end as well.
Those who think we wouldn't be in a financial mess if we leave the EU only have to listen to what Rees-Mogg. He said it would take 50 years for the country to get back on a similar financial footing. That means basically and entire generation (our children lifetimes) of complete and utter hardship. Would be like going back to the early 1900's.

Agree with this play out in that there will be a second referendum and we will stay in - the EU Advocate General in his ruling is opening the door for this. Afterwards the Conservative party will fragment and we will get a Corbyn government. I'm actually not sure this is less worse for the UK than Brexit but so be it - Cameron should not have offered the referendum in the first place as UKIP was always going to fizzle out.
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Agree with this play out in that there will be a second referendum and we will stay in - the EU Advocate General in his ruling is opening the door for this. Afterwards the Conservative party will fragment and we will get a Corbyn government. I'm actually not sure this is less worse for the UK than Brexit but so be it - Cameron should not have offered the referendum in the first place as UKIP was always going to fizzle out.
If all Corbyn does is honour his promises about public transport, homelessness, the poverty gap, foodbanks etc then he’s deserved his shift at the helm IMHO.
 

bigbob

Member
Messages
8,952
If all Corbyn does is honour his promises about public transport, homelessness, the poverty gap, foodbanks etc then he’s deserved his shift at the helm IMHO.

Politics is boring if it's all the same and Labour deserve a crack at it. How long it might last is another matter........

Re trains, I've travelled on the East Coast mainline a few times since it was 're-nationalised' and it's no better.
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,593
The only fault I see in your observation Matt is it seemingly resigns to the very shoddy campaigns that led us to making an unnervingly uninformed decision....That and an unintuitive denial of the UKs real interests...

Ill give you that one.
 

TimR

Member
Messages
2,656
My overarching issue with "ping-pong" politics is the money and time we waste building it up, taking it down, and endless costly consultation...
With so little agreement across the spectrum, at least coalition serves to moderate and helm a centrist course.
Ive long been in favour of coalition govts. The fact the UK has a phobia of them is likely something to do with how we find ourselves up the creek and so far, without a paddle..!
Many of our european partners have managaed to govern successfully this way..
And this is my problem. Its not about govrning the country first and foremost. It's being driven by political ambition, lack of leadership and narcissistic ambition...
 

bigbob

Member
Messages
8,952
I say "hurray" for that. I like boring. I like stable. I like continuity...
Because life is hard enough without the whimsy of this vacuous political drama..!

The trouble with 'boring' is that, with time, voter turn out reduces which leaves the door open for extreme/material different politics to get hold. It's as much a cycle as is the economy. Who would have guessed when Michael Foot was leading Labour that a decade and half later it would be a middle of road party led by a fake Tory politician?
 

TimR

Member
Messages
2,656
The trouble with 'boring' is that, with time, voter turn out reduces which leaves the door open for extreme/material different politics to get hold. It's as much a cycle as is the economy. Who would have guessed when Michael Foot was leading Labour that a decade and half later it would be a middle of road party led by a fake Tory politician?

So what you're really saying is "you like boring"...cos then we wont have political progress
Keeping the electorate in a stae of soporific fatigue borne of inane political drama serves to engage our small minds whilst diverting from real politics or govt...!

Kind of how I find myself, a Remainer, scared that we are walking into May's deal which promises nothing other than to diminish us. At least, of that I fear there is a very real possibility !?

But I say too much...
I am the material politics you dont like....
I say from here we need to Crash out...or recind Article 50.
 

outrun

Member
Messages
5,017
If all Corbyn does is honour his promises about public transport, homelessness, the poverty gap, foodbanks etc then he’s deserved his shift at the helm IMHO.

Sorry but he's clearly a racist and he absolutely does not deserve to lead our country. I've stayed out of this Brexit chat until now but he's so far to the socialist left that he is bigoted and that is never a good thing for any country, whether far left or far right. The Brexit vote has highlighted the type of segregation and intolerance that many of us, myself included, hadn't really understood still exists in the UK. In times of turmoil, like this one, the wise thing is to support the centre ground and not to allow the extremes on either side to make a power grab. On the right, it's Rees-Mogg that we must be very wary of driving into an elitist and supremacist government. There is and there will never be any place for this is our modern world. You don't have to reach far back in history to see what can happen when extremists take power in a so-called educated society. That's why our parents and grandparents so overwhelmingly voted to stay inside a united EU. It's not because the EU is always right - it **** well isn't - it's because those generations understand and remember first hand the tragic cost of breaking down barriers and fighting for right against wrong. The solution here was to listen to the people and fight for a better deal for the UK within the EU, to break the obvious stranglehold that France and Germany have on the proceedings. But to do that on a platform of truths and not lies on the side of buses.

It's an unfortunate thing that the centrist majority doesn't shout as loud as the fringes. Now is the time to shout.
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Politics is boring if it's all the same and Labour deserve a crack at it. How long it might last is another matter........

Re trains, I've travelled on the East Coast mainline a few times since it was 're-nationalised' and it's no better.
Fair point but it’s still under the Tories. I find it shocking that it’s frwquently cheaper to fly to NY than to travel Leeds - KX on ECML

I say Corbyn deserves a go, mainly cos the current state of affairs can’t continue, everyone seems to fear the bad old days of three day week, power cuts etc (which happened under the Tories) or USSR GB, which is a typical right wing attack.

What Thatcher did with selling council houses to people that already owned them, was to create a huge bank of working class people who because they have a mortgage think they are Tories, the Alf Garnett syndrome I call it.

Dunno if anyone posted this, but a lot of it rings true...

 

TimR

Member
Messages
2,656
Sorry but he's clearly a racist and he absolutely does not deserve to lead our country...
Im not so sure he is a rascist...although I agree with most everything you just posted...(Im deeply suspicious of the way the media has handled the whole Corbynism thing, myself...)
For sure he is a throwback, some species of political dinosaur with nothing new to offer. My view of Labour's role in our current "demise" is not a good one...
I also believe Labout have nothing to offer thsi country anymore. They are as spent as the Tories...
Too bad we are stuck with two party merry-go-round for the foreseeable.
You can always rely on a politician in a crisis...not !
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Sorry but he's clearly a racist and he absolutely does not deserve to lead our country. I've stayed out of this Brexit chat until now but he's so far to the socialist left that he is bigoted and that is never a good thing for any country, whether far left or far right. The Brexit vote has highlighted the type of segregation and intolerance that many of us, myself included, hadn't really understood still exists in the UK. In times of turmoil, like this one, the wise thing is to support the centre ground and not to allow the extremes on either side to make a power grab. On the right, it's Rees-Mogg that we must be very wary of driving into an elitist and supremacist government. There is and there will never be any place for this is our modern world. You don't have to reach far back in history to see what can happen when extremists take power in a so-called educated society. That's why our parents and grandparents so overwhelmingly voted to stay inside a united EU. It's not because the EU is always right - it **** well isn't - it's because those generations understand and remember first hand the tragic cost of breaking down barriers and fighting for right against wrong. The solution here was to listen to the people and fight for a better deal for the UK within the EU, to break the obvious stranglehold that France and Germany have on the proceedings. But to do that on a platform of truths and not lies on the side of buses.

It's an unfortunate thing that the centrist majority doesn't shout as loud as the fringes. Now is the time to shout.
I also agree with what you say but not that Corbyn is a racist, in fact just the opposite. Is it the anti-Semite thing? I found those allegations odd, given his views on LGBT, diversity, race in general, etc. Why would he just have a downer on Jews.

He’s done some daft things, attending IRA funerals etc, but who hasn’t. I went to Old Trafford once, my Dad nearly killed me...
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,309
Agree with most of it Athol, but it’s the elder generation who voted us out not in!!
 

dickygrace

www.richardgracecars.co.uk
Messages
7,309
That's a bit wide of the mark methinks.

PH
Beat me to it. Although all the people I know (4 of them) who voted leave will vote remain in the event of a people’s vote as they’ve seen the error of their ways.