Brexit Deal

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Reminds me of the British Rail sell-off, I was working at Railtrack at the time on a project to split the IT infrastructure, and saw the money chaps come in, buy up TOC's (sometimes by proxy as there was a limit ISTR) then sell off again pocketing huge amounts of wodge. I ended up out of Railtrack and working on systems for at least three different TOC's one after the other as they changed names, hands and function.

This is similar, some folks will be making a killing on this advising us best for the UK, and after it's all gone pear-shaped, they'll be off with the cash...
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
And who cares if motorists cross the border freely to buy cheaper petrol or a packet of ciggies?

Despite being in the EU, the Belfast Agreement, and closer integration of the two countries there is still smuggling going on. Mostly fuel.

One of my friends is a senior tax inspector in Dublin. He tells me customs officers currently patrol the border from Dublin because they don't dare post any officials to the border; they would be boycotted or worse. This is the situation after a twenty year peace initiative, after the success of the Belfast Agreement.

I know what way things will go if border posts are needed again.
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Some random thoughts re: the Irish Border, the CTA trumps EU rules, and as UK and Ireland joined the UK on the same day, it's never been an issue, but what now?

It's estimated the UK/Irish family integration is now something like 40%, imagine a hard border for that? And, under the terms of the CTA, UK/Irish citizens are not considered foreigners in each other's countries and are not subject to immigration control. Indeed I travel to Dublin by ferry and plane with just my driving licence for ID (not Ryanair tho). So if UK leaves there will be an open border between UK and Ireland, FoM, everything, as per the CTA.

And Sinn Fein, they have MP's and TD's in both Irelands, I wonder how or if the EU will handle that? Or even care. But it would be an odd situation as you could have a political party with seats both inside and outside the EU.

Whole thing has had no thought given to it as Cameron gamble in a remain vote, and lost.

'SHOULD the UK leave the EU?'

Should? Implies 'it's a possibility' allied to the fact a referendum isn't binding on Government or Parliament, but it's a brave party that would go against it.
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
Some random thoughts re: the Irish Border, the CTA trumps EU rules, and as UK and Ireland joined the UK on the same day, it's never been an issue, but what now?

Ireland and the UK joined the EEC on the same day, 1st January 1973, because it was recognised at the time that having one in and one out would cause no end of problems.
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,893
A long read, but words of wisdom from Former Australian PM Tony Abbott (in The Spectator)

"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
A long read, but words of wisdom from Former Australian PM Tony Abbott (in The Spectator)

"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.


As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."

I read the already, pretty fair but not 100% accurate. EU membership is a contract, either we honour the contract, (stay in) or break the contract (leave). that last option being no deal, there can't be anything in between, what is happening now is purely down to this whole thing being started on a Tory gamble for votes without being in any way thought through or indeed whether it's reasonably achievable to un-distill 40-odd years of mixed blood.
 

rivarama

Member
Messages
1,102
I do remember a poll done in this forum right before Brexit or may be right after (don’t remember exactly). There was a comfortable margin to the leavers... reading this thread, I am not sure it is quite the case anymore.
It’d be interesting to take the same poll today... just saying !
 

D Walker

Member
Messages
9,827
Having just watched the news Macron had called for his European Army, and i think he mentioned one governing body.
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,256
A long read, but words of wisdom from Former Australian PM Tony Abbott (in The Spectator)

"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.


As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."

Does he fancy being the UK PM? He’d get my vote; yes I’m still a leaver...
 

Zep

Moderator
Messages
9,202
I do remember a poll done in this forum right before Brexit or may be right after (don’t remember exactly). There was a comfortable margin to the leavers... reading this thread, I am not sure it is quite the case anymore.
It’d be interesting to take the same poll today... just saying !

It would be interesting and it ended so well last time! :D
 
Last edited:

dunnah01

Member
Messages
648
I do remember a poll done in this forum right before Brexit or may be right after (don’t remember exactly). There was a comfortable margin to the leavers... reading this thread, I am not sure it is quite the case anymore.
It’d be interesting to take the same poll today... just saying !
My vote would still be the same as it was then that it's a huge and expensive mistake to leave the EU, but now I'm wishing we'd just get on with making it..
 

TimR

Member
Messages
2,723
Does he fancy being the UK PM? He’d get my vote; yes I’m still a leaver...
If he spent as much time "caring" about Australia's domestic and cultural plight as he does pontificating about the UK's position, Im sure the Barrier Reef, coal deposits and Indigenous peoples of Australia could breathe a sigh of relief...
He's an invested liberal who knows which side his bread is buttered. Consequences are an inconvenience he's too good for....
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
I do remember a poll done in this forum right before Brexit or may be right after (don’t remember exactly). There was a comfortable margin to the leavers... reading this thread, I am not sure it is quite the case anymore.
It’d be interesting to take the same poll today... just saying !

I remember that too. It didn't end well last time! Perhaps best not provoke things further :)

I also remember that poll was the first time I realised Leave was going to win. Maserati owners tend to be self selecting: richer than average perhaps, more likely than average to have travelled, and definitely more likely than average to be running a business, so when I first dipped my toe into that pre-referendum thread, I was expecting to hear 'yeah I don't like Brussels bureaucrats but my business exports all over Europe so I'm going to vote Remain'. I was honestly shocked by the 'comfortable margin' as you rightly remember.

I'm impressed at how much more nuanced this thread has been; equally impressive is how much more contemplative and civil it has been. We've obviously been on a three year learning experience.
 
Messages
6,001
I was a leaver in the Referendum vote and the SM vote
I remember watching one of the tv progs around 2 am and I thought - hey we can win (the leave campaign) this one and was surprised because I thought the remain camp would prevail.
I am still a leaver now but just wish it would all end asap
 

Needamaser

Member
Messages
1,499
I'm impressed at how much more nuanced this thread has been; equally impressive is how much more contemplative and civil it has been. We've obviously been on a three year learning experience.
Perhaps most folk are sick to death of the whole shambles and moving onto something else in their lives?