Brexit Deal

rivarama

Member
Messages
1,102
Thanks for the reply.

The negotiations you speak of are simply the Withdrawal Agreement, the future deal is going to take years to establish. It's in everyone's interest to achieve this as quickly as possible but it will take years. CETA is ten years in negotiation. The future UK/EU deal is going to be at least twice as complicated as CETA. Quickly is a relative term; you might become horrified at what trade negotiators think is 'quick'.
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But hold on, BlorisJobson told us that we would get a trade agreement like Canada or Norway in a matter of weeks, months at the most... surely you must be wrong!!
 

rivarama

Member
Messages
1,102
Regardless of what happens, you can expect massive increase in number of government employees to deal with new volume of work due to duplication... glad my tax money goes to making a fat governing body even fatter...
 

TridentTested

Member
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1,819
only difference is that they are elected !!

Well that's a moot point. No one elected Theresa May to the premiership, nor the second chamber, nor the civil service (the UK's version of the EU Commission) nor the head of state. Not much election going on there.
 

TridentTested

Member
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1,819

rivarama

Member
Messages
1,102
You are right to be angry about this. £500m a week and rising. The UK is paying more to leave the EU than it costs to remain; paying to put itself in a worse position.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...illion-pounds-a-week-study-says-idUKKCN1MA0DU
That was only going to be a surprise for the people who only looked at 1 side of the coin - eg the membership fee we were paying to be part of Europe. Even not this day, nobody ever speak of the other side of this coin: that £500m (which I believe will be way more)
 

rivarama

Member
Messages
1,102
Well that's a moot point. No one elected Theresa May to the premiership, nor the second chamber, nor the civil service (the UK's version of the EU Commission) nor the head of state. Not much election going on there.
Oh right ! so not much difference between our politicians and the “european technocrats” then... else than ours speak English with no accents and are holding a UK passport ;-)
 

Navcorr

Member
Messages
3,839
A handy cut-out-and-keep summary, for when you are told the EU is unelected.
Your chart is rather lopsided if you don't mind me saying. Quite deliberately so I'd suggest.
For example, Juncker was indeed elected by the EP - but they only had 1 candidate to vote for. In a secret ballot.
The previous EU Parl. Pres. (Shultz) sat twice - and ran for his election against others who few had heard of.
MEPs are elected but, largely, act as nothing more than a rubber stamp for the Commission. Who hold the real power.
Bear in mind the vast majority of MEPs are pro-European. So where is the real debate?
I would also ask where Martin Selmayr fits into your handy little chart? His appointment broke any number of EU protocols.
As Juncker's man though it didn't matter. He and the Commission act almost with impunity.
I also believe moves are afoot to streamline the various European presidencies into one all-powerful incumbent. Wonder who wants that job?

This is why I voted to leave. Not so much what has gone before but what is likely to be coming further down the line.
Single EU chancellery, EU army, etc, etc …. an EU super state is not for me thanks.
 

conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,593
I would just like to say thank you to all the opinions expressed to those whom are not fully aware of all the issues and secondly, for keeping it in a gentlemanly manner.

We the mods are happy to let this potentially contentious thread continue on the condition it remains friendly.

Carry on...
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
We the mods are happy to let this potentially contentious thread continue on the condition it remains friendly.

Thanks Matt.

I'm impressed we've got to five pages of civilised discussion on a very contentious subject. The thread which started before the referendum was closed pretty quickly - and rightly so, it descended into territory I hope is not plumbed again.
 

TridentTested

Member
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1,819
Bear in mind the vast majority of MEPs are pro-European. So where is the real debate?

Why should it be surprising that the majority of MEPs are pro-European? That's like complaining the majority of Irish TDs (MPs) are pro-Ireland.

This is why I voted to leave. Not so much what has gone before but what is likely to be coming further down the line.
Single EU chancellery, EU army, etc, etc …. an EU super state is not for me thanks.

It's a view I can respect, but disagree with. The best way to influence these things is to stay and oppose them by democratic means. The UK has 77 MEPs, more than double (by population) of the new members. The UK punches above its weight in the EU, always has.

Personally I don't see what is wrong with a European army but if you object to it then stay and veto it.

People always sneer that "Ireland was made vote twice". That's not what happened. Ireland rejected Lisbon because of the European army. The EU was forced to redraft Lisbon and then Ireland gave it a generous majority. That's what democratic influence is. Stay and fight the battle.
 
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conaero

Forum Owner
Messages
34,593
Thanks Matt.

I'm impressed we've got to five pages of civilised discussion on a very contentious subject. The thread which started before the referendum was closed pretty quickly - and rightly so, it descended into territory I hope is not plumbed again.

This tread should be around the way forward. We are leaving, that is a given and needs no further debate.
 

MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,795
What about satellites? The UK doesn’t have any all of them are through the EU.

I don't think this is correct. There are many satellites of many types. Some owned by UK Govt some by the EU but most by private companies. For example HYLAS-4, which is for high speed data transmission services to Africa and Latin America, is owned and operated by UK-based Avanti Communications. UK Govt and companies can easily buy time on commercial (and government) satellites under existing and new contracts.

For positioning we rely on GPS, owned by the US government. The UK has been a major funder of the Galileo system (as has Switzerland) and it would definitely be spiteful, and almost certainly illegal for the EU to exclude us from it, even if we left the EU.

It is worth remembering that the European Space Agency is NOT part of the EU, (although the EU is desperately trying to take it over).
 

Navcorr

Member
Messages
3,839
Why should it be surprising that the majority of MEPs are pro-European? That's like complaining the majority of Irish TDs (MPs) are pro-Ireland. I didn't say it was surprising. I'm asking where the balance and redress is.

It's a view I can respect, but disagree with. The best way to influence these things is to stay and oppose them by democratic means. The UK has 77 MEPs, more than double (by population) of the new members. The UK punches above its weight in the EU, always has. In an ideal world I'd wholeheartedly agree with you here. I'm not convinced this is what happens though. The EU vision is one dimensional and, imho, the creation of an EU superstrate is now almost unavoidable.

Personally I don't see what is wrong with a European army but if you object to it then stay and veto it. Funding, command structure, political will, speed of action when required to react.

People always sneer that "Ireland was made vote twice". That's not what happened. Ireland rejected Lisbon because of the European army. The EU was forced to redraft Lisbon and then Ireland gave it a generous majority. That's what democratic influence is. Stay and fight the battle. Whereas in the UK, Lisbon was sneaked in through the backdoor. Despite manifesto promises of a referendum. Why wasn't it held - simply the powers at be knew they'd lose it. At least that is my rather jaundiced point of view.

What was Juncker's quote before the French ref. in '05. "If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,” Just about sums it up for me.
But, as per further comments though, I'm happy to discuss matters in a gentlemanly fashion and likewise I do respect the opposing point of view. That is what democracy should be.
 
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MarkMas

Chief pedant
Messages
8,795
...what is your proposal for maintaining the international peace treaty in Northern Ireland which ended a thirty year war, neatly solved 400 years of discord, took ten years to negotiate and was ratified by 71% and 94% referendum majorities on both sides of the border?

The 'open border' between NI and the Republic was a very minor part of the Good Friday Agreement, which certainly has helped to make Republicans happy and was easy to do within the EU, but is not (and never has been) some sort of crucial element of the deal. Nor did the Agreement "neatly solve 400 years of discord"; it merely created a tolerable fudge that allows it to simmer quietly, not explode. To close the border now would be an inconvenience, and might raise temperatures a little, but it is not the big deal that the EU (and the Republic) finds it convenient to claim that it is.