Brexit Deal

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,683
"If May’s deal wasn’t leaving how come MPs voting it down were labelled traitors and accused of blocking Brexit?"

People that voted leave didn’t vote for a deal that doesn’t allow us to leave. Shock horror.
You go figure it, I’m not banging my head on your wall anymore.
It would help if you actually read the question. It wasn't about people voting the deal down. It was about people who voted the deal down being labeled as traitors. If it wasn't Brexit then they couldn't be traitors could they?

It doesn't matter what I think we are leaving with no-deal regardless.

What I am interested in is that mitigating "Project Fear" now appears to be government policy. Its almost as if it wasn't "Project Fear" but "Project Reality". The delusion is on those that parroted the the UK had nothing to fear from Brexit and that people would be queuing up to do deals with us.

This idea that having no-deal on the table in order to drive a hard bargain only works if the damage is worse to the EU than it is to us. This isn't the case. We will still need a deal with the EU after leaving with no deal. They will still be trading without barriers to a large portion of the world. We have no leverage and never had.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,683
He doesn’t want ‘no deal’ but he’s prepared to walk away without one as the backstop in the withdrawal agreement negotiated by the previous inept PM is unacceptable as confirmed by the legal advice, twice now.
Capiche?
I think you're right. Johnson doesn't want "no-deal", I don't think he cares either way. It doesn't matter to him whether the EU give him a deal or not. If they don't then he'll be the strong leader that defied the EU, if they do then he'll be the strong leader that got the better of the EU. Either way he wins.

He can play either to call an election as soon as possible after 31st October to strengthen his position in parliament. Of course that would rely on enough of the opposition playing ball. Which might just happen as Corbyn is running out of time to be PM and this would be a final roll of the dice for him.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,683
Mays deal is truly diabolical tho for the UK, for both leavers and remainers- we lose our sovereignty. Hence you see how she has sold us down the river by the EU trying to hold us to her bollox.
This sovereignty argument is a difficult one to understand. Its emotive, plays on ignorance, and ultimately total and utter bollox.

Whenever you sign an agreement you agree to a set of terms and conditions. You might sign away some rights in order to get a beneficial return. This happens to many people everyday. An example would be an employment contract that means that you give up time in return for being given money. This restricts what you can do during the time you should be at work.

The same is true for international agreements. When a country signs up to an agreement they give up certain rights in order to get a beneficial return. This restricts the country's actions with respect to the area covered by the agreement.

Each and every trade agreement signed by a country diminishes their ability to exercise their sovereign powers. This is known and accepted. Its the way of the world.

With respect to the EU the sovereign UK parliament has, by majority vote, acceded to agreements with the EU. These have limited parliamentary powers in certain areas in return for benefits. There are a number of areas of EU policy and powers that the UK never signed up to. There are things that the UK didn't implement, in particular around the registration and deportation of immigrants. In these circumstances the UK exercised its sovereign rights.

When we leave we will want a deal with the EU. We will have to sign agreements. These will come with limits to our sovereign powers.

Sovereignty is a smoke screen, nothing more, nothing less. Its an emotive word that is used to assist the Us v Them diatribe that has been used to great effect in the Brexit debate. Ultimately we have limits on our sovereignty by virtue of having signed up to many agreements with many bodies. We need to do that to avoid being seen as a rogue state.
 

Rwc13

Member
Messages
1,167
This sovereignty argument is a difficult one to understand. Its emotive, plays on ignorance, and ultimately total and utter bollox.

Whenever you sign an agreement you agree to a set of terms and conditions. You might sign away some rights in order to get a beneficial return. This happens to many people everyday. An example would be an employment contract that means that you give up time in return for being given money. This restricts what you can do during the time you should be at work.

The same is true for international agreements. When a country signs up to an agreement they give up certain rights in order to get a beneficial return. This restricts the country's actions with respect to the area covered by the agreement.

Each and every trade agreement signed by a country diminishes their ability to exercise their sovereign powers. This is known and accepted. Its the way of the world.

With respect to the EU the sovereign UK parliament has, by majority vote, acceded to agreements with the EU. These have limited parliamentary powers in certain areas in return for benefits. There are a number of areas of EU policy and powers that the UK never signed up to. There are things that the UK didn't implement, in particular around the registration and deportation of immigrants. In these circumstances the UK exercised its sovereign rights.

When we leave we will want a deal with the EU. We will have to sign agreements. These will come with limits to our sovereign powers.

Sovereignty is a smoke screen, nothing more, nothing less. Its an emotive word that is used to assist the Us v Them diatribe that has been used to great effect in the Brexit debate. Ultimately we have limits on our sovereignty by virtue of having signed up to many agreements with many bodies. We need to do that to avoid being seen as a rogue state.
Not completely true. As EU members, once we have given away some of our sovereignty on a specific EU agreement, the only way to get it back is to walk away from the EU completely, as we are trying to do. We can’t unilaterally decide to walk away from a specific EU agreement that we have signed up to because it doesn’t suit us anymore. But with a bi-lateral UK trade deal, we can choose to walk away at any time, so we preserve our sovereignty by having that unilateral choice.

As with all this stuff, people tend to state/oversimplify the “facts” to suit their political view.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
2,938
Not completely true. As EU members, once we have given away some of our sovereignty on a specific EU agreement, the only way to get it back is to walk away from the EU completely, as we are trying to do. We can’t unilaterally decide to walk away from a specific EU agreement that we have signed up to because it doesn’t suit us anymore. But with a bi-lateral UK trade deal, we can choose to walk away at any time, so we preserve our sovereignty by having that unilateral choice.

As with all this stuff, people tend to state/oversimplify the “facts” to suit their political view.
Very proud of the SMDRP member, rides out of the doom and gloom, spouting wisdom! Magnificent!
:clap:
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
2,938
So following on from the fact that this forum has a wealth of knowledge across many fields here’s my contribution. We’re in a situation, beyond our individual control, so let’s try to make the best of it, whatever your view is.

PROBLEM - Brexit and the plummeting £ = OPPORTUNITY

Potential Gains of 20% to be had. Make the situation work for you.

buy $ at $1.21....using your £

sell at 1.10 or at $1 for about 5-10 years of equivalent bank returns in 80 odd days.

Risk- new deal is negotiated, but that means we’ll still leave.....likely sterling will still fall below where it is now..$1.21 ish.
No deal, plummets......as above.

TIp, don’t do the £ to $ conversion through your bank, the rates they give are appalling.

Instead,
Set up an account with the likes of OFX (https://www.ofx.com/en-au/- I use them and it works well, (As always shop around and satisfy yourself) or other specialist currency Broker. Even if you don’t do this a specialist forex broker will give Rates that are MUCH better than your bank and you can use their services for all your future foreign holidays once it’s in place.
Check it out yourself, get a broker quote and get a bank quote. As always the more you transfer the bigger the difference but it will be a surprise to you! Your bank is ripping you off.

All you do is transfer your £ to your ur selected FOREX broker, they convert at a higher $ rate and send back to your bank.

Make sure you create a $ account with your bank so they don’t convert it back to £! You’ll give your forex broker these $ account details.

Obviously if you are converting to another selected currency make sure you have an appropriate account with your bank or they will convert back to £!!

Pound Falling to Parity Is an Idea That’s Starting to Take Hold
Suddenly, the idea of pound parity seems less far-fetched as the risk grows that Britain may crash out of the European Union without a deal.

Read in Bloomberg: https://apple.news/AO1Ffiq-IRUqgj1KyWef5Kw

I’ll drop $-£ updates to keep you all updated but many currency brokers allow you to set “alerts” when the currency you have bought hits a price against another. You can then decide to sell or not depending on the latest developments.
 
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Wattie

Member
Messages
2,938
Your ability to try to twist something is impressive.

Last week the Brexit party took votes off the Tories, leading to a LIb win....and a reduced Tory majority in the House.
The Tories are the ones in power and currently have the duty to deliver Brexit.

Remainers, unable to accept a democratic result are trying everything to overturn and thwart it.

Hence,
“People's Vote campaign urges Remainers to vote tactically across 100 marginal seats in snap election
Remain voters are being told to ‘hold their noses’ and vote tactically across 100 marginal seats if a snap general election is called. The People’s Vote campaign - the driving force behind bidding for a second EU referendum - has crafted a list of 100 target seats where Remainers will be urged to set aside their traditional party loyalties to help install MPs vying for a second vote. The efforts which apply across England, Scotland and Wales aims to boost the number of pro-People’s Vote MPs in”

Read in PoliticsHome: https://apple.news/AeQDTNiajT7W7QwSDSlR_fg

So I’m holding my nose and suggesting the above in retaliation, not that the Brexit party is too Brexity at all. It will ensure more votes go to the only other leave party- the Tories. I’m still no Johnson fan.

The other option of course is a Tory/Brexit party alliance in such a scenario...which I’d be quite happy about.

So, now i’ve untwisted your twist, you’ll understand why.
Further to the above.....Brexit party doesn’t stand, votes go to Tories.
Or they stand and a coalition is formed.59132

The current situation seems to be stalemate, no negotiation, we’re not moving, by the Eu.

Frankly, that’s because at the moment the Eu can see that their negotiation is being done by a section of UK MP’s who now say “no deal” is unconstitutional, and want to thwart it. Even tho, they all voted for A50.The Eu hopes this succeeds! Remainers do too.

As a leaver, and i’d be interested what others leaver think (we’re clearly in the minority on the forum and I understand if you wanna keep out of the thread) but I’ve always felt from day 1 that our elected representatives didn’t really give it a chance and that was the disappointing thing, until the recent PM change.

I now detect a resolve that frankly should have been there 3 years ago.

My views are that this isn’t about “no deal”. It’s about stopping Brexit. It’s totally ridiculous to expect the Eu who doesn’t want us to leave to offer us a deal if that is our position.surely everyone can see that.

It also seems odd to me to suggest that a democratic result, supported by parliament via invoking A50 is now unconstitutional. It seems even odder to me that our Mp’s are now opposing such and effectively siding with those we are trying to obtain a better deal with. Isn’t that treasonous?

My view is that is a betrayal of the result and I know that remainers will argue that everyone has their own definition of leave.
I accept that.
But we were ONLY asked to vote on leave or remain. The fault is undoubtably the detail in the question, but the answer was clear. Leave, won. No interpretation of what that meant, just leave.

After all,Mp’s invoked A50 on that basis- then chose to interpret it. Brexit Mp’s as mentioned above were even blamed for the failure of Mays deal, ridiculous as it wasn’t leaving but they were criticised by some saying if you’d supported it we’d be out by now. We wouldn’t be out and remainers should be pleased that Mays deal wasn’t put through too, by those that stood firm....even in desperate times. Jesus, Johnson and others supported it at one point out of desperation, thank goodness it didn’t go through.

Think of all the time that MAY used up, 3,4,5 months with that atrocious proposal. Promising change, nothing, trying to force the Uk into an Eu dominated treaty....as the clocked ticked down. Think of how the Eu could have killed us off, no deal out the window, she asked for an extension. They should have said no, they didn’t, unbelievable cos at that point Mp’s would have had to revoke A50.
Now look at what they face.

Stories of Corbyn getting in a taxi and visiting the Queen to block such is hard to swallow.
Each and everyone of these individuals were responsible for putting the legal default in place, if no deal is negotiated.

What a mess, what a shambles and a disgrace. What a tragedy!
I still believe they’ll blink but I’m appalled at what some Mp’s are doing. They are trying to sabotage the only negotiating position we ever had.
 
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empzb

Member
Messages
111
But May's
Further to the above.....Brexit party doesn’t stand, votes go to Tories.
Or they stand and a coalition is formed.View attachment 59132

The current situation seems to be stalemate, no negotiation, we’re not moving, by the Eu.

Frankly, that’s because at the moment the Eu can see that their negotiation is being done by a section of UK MP’s who now say “no deal” is unconstitutional, and want to thwart it. Even tho, they all voted for A50.The Eu hopes this succeeds! Remainers do too.

As a leaver, and i’d be interested what others leaver think (we’re clearly in the minority on the forum and I understand if you wanna keep out of the thread) but I’ve always felt from day 1 that our elected representatives didn’t really give it a chance and that was the disappointing thing, until the recent PM change.

I now detect a resolve that frankly should have been there 3 years ago.

My views are that this isn’t about “no deal”. It’s about stopping Brexit. It’s totally ridiculous to expect the Eu who doesn’t want us to leave to offer us a deal if that is our position.surely everyone can see that.

It also seems odd to me to suggest that a democratic result, supported by parliament via invoking A50 is now unconstitutional. It seems even odder to me that our Mp’s are now opposing such and effectively siding with those we are trying to obtain a better deal with. Isn’t that treasonous?

My view is that is a betrayal of the result and I know that remainers will argue that everyone has their own definition of leave.
I accept that.
But we were ONLY asked to vote on leave or remain. The fault is undoubtably the detail in the question, but the answer was clear. Leave, won. No interpretation of what that meant, just leave.

After all,Mp’s invoked A50 on that basis- then chose to interpret it. Brexit Mp’s as mentioned above were even blamed for the failure of Mays deal, ridiculous as it wasn’t leaving but they were criticised by some saying if you’d supported it we’d be out by now. We wouldn’t be out and remainers should be pleased that Mays deal wasn’t put through too, by those that stood firm....even in desperate times. Jesus, Johnson and others supported it at one point out of desperation, thank goodness it didn’t go through.

Think of all the time that MAY used up, 3,4,5 months with that atrocious proposal. Promising change, nothing, trying to force the Uk into an Eu dominated treaty....as the clocked ticked down. Think of how the Eu could have killed us off, no deal out the window, she asked for an extension. They should have said no, they didn’t, unbelievable cos at that point Mp’s would have had to revoke A50.
Now look at what they face.

Stories of Corbyn getting in a taxi and visiting the Queen to block such is hard to swallow.
Each and everyone of these individuals were responsible for putting the legal default in place, if no deal is negotiated.

What a mess, what a shambles and a disgrace. What a tragedy!
I still believe they’ll blink but I’m appalled at what some Mp’s are doing. They are trying to sabotage the only negotiating position we ever had.
But May's deal was leaving...thus the problem of trying to square the circle that is brexit. Everyone had a different idea of what it meant, including its staunch supporters.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,683
What a mess, what a shambles and a disgrace. What a tragedy!
I still believe they’ll blink but I’m appalled at what some Mp’s are doing. They are trying to sabotage the only negotiating position we ever had.

Johnson doesn’t care. He doesn’t care about anything but himself. Either way he will get himself elected for a new term.

If the EU blink over the backstop it won’t matter. The ERG will find another fault with the agreement. They have already said so. They want us out with no deal.

The only option for them is to remove the backstop if we are to leave on 31st Oct. There’s no real time for a substantive renegotiation. You’re absolutely right on May here. She should have binned her deal after the first vote not wasted time playing brinkmanship with Parliament.
 

rivarama

Member
Messages
719
Someone wake the drunk captain up already...

“Some 63% of respondents said they would rather Brexit took place even if it led to Scottish independence”

We could be watching this country being ripped before our eyes in slow motion. It wouldn’t be so sad I would be buying some pop corn.