Brexit Deal

Messages
2,307
I am intrigued by the barriers to a second vote. When the original referendum was proposed even Rees-Mogg suggested it would be on the basis on an initial ref on leaving and then a final vote on the outcome of negotiations. He, and many others including Farage and Redwood, have changed this view lately. Redwood has - rather laughably in my view - said that he hasn’t changed his view and that the general election where the Tories said they would hold the ref was the first vote and the actual ref was the second vote. He is spinning so fast i’m surprised his head doesn’t fall off.

So I had a read up on this. The main argument against seems to be that by going for a second vote we risk usurping parliamentary democracy with direct democracy. This seems fair if referenda were to become commonplace. Another is that if we have a second, what is there to stop a third for those that don’t like that result. That one is easy, just make the second ref legally binding.

Certainly a number of people here who would rather not leave have said they would be bound by a second referendum regardless of outcome. That includes me.
The binding element to the referendum came from Cameron & the remain camp as part of project fear. This was subsequently adopted and accepted by both sides of the debate. Until the result.
 
Messages
11,405
Agree Andy.

If you said to your wife I want a divorce but then after seeing what you were to loose said... erm no, not really... the relationship would be rather challenging.
 
Messages
4,710
It really gets on my wick when people aren't prepared to take a chance on something unknown. I think our negotiating has been weak and the EU have been weak but in a different way.

For those who say the EU works for all and well they need to look in the mirror. Most people (not all so blanket statement) that voted remain or support remain or don't want to support anything but this have the most or more to lose than others. This is not a global or widespread view they are taking.

If we had a chance to re-create the EU now after what we know from the last 25 years would we have what we have today? I doubt it. So why don't we change it? This is the ideal opportunity to create a new EU with the advantage of 25 years of knowledge and data. Amazing opportunity when you think of it.

Sure they'll be some pain but boy won't it be worth it for all long term.

It is also what was voted for regardless of margins. If this fails to be stuck to then you may as well throw democracy in the bin.

It is no good for academics to say idiots voted for things they knew nothing about or were not informed of. Crying over spilt milk. Stop crying and get on with it. Bored of all the b1tching and phaffing about. Just deal with it.
 
Messages
1,040
But, a bit like a divorce, it is almost impossible to get an agreement that both parties are happy with - the parties need to try to find a compromise that both can live with. And, as in most divorces, particularly involving children, there will always be some uncertainties, eg shared care, that will need to evolve as time goes by. The parties need to accept that at the outset and show at least some degree of trust that they will be play fair when riding out the inevitable bumps in the road. And then there is the ultimate role of the courts in arbitrating where the parties can’t agree.

These rules are mostly true of every negotiation I have ever been involved with. So why do so many people think that any Brexit agreement would be any different, apart from in a no deal scenario.
 
Messages
372
Being afraid of the unknown was the exact reason I voted the way I did. It’s not a £5 bet on the Grand National with £1 each way! This was what upset the majority of people my age, our parents gambled our future on a bet they’d return to the glory days of Empire, a system you could liken to the EU but where we, Great Britain, had the equivalent of Germany’s role in the EU. They wouldn’t have voted to leave that club, what’s wrong with this one?

I don’t particularly like being part of the EU but not one single person/website/newspaper/etc could given me a benefit of leaving that was a demonstrable fact and they still can’t.
 
Messages
1,021
But, a bit like a divorce, it is almost impossible to get an agreement that both parties are happy with - the parties need to try to find a compromise that both can live with. And, as in most divorces, particularly involving children, there will always be some uncertainties, eg shared care, that will need to evolve as time goes by. The parties need to accept that at the outset and show at least some degree of trust that they will be play fair when riding out the inevitable bumps in the road. And then there is the ultimate role of the courts in arbitrating where the parties can’t agree.

These rules are mostly true of every negotiation I have ever been involved with. So why do so many people think that any Brexit agreement would be any different, apart from in a no deal scenario.
I agree with what you say but unfortunately Europe does not negotiate. It dictates and threatens as it cannot allow anyone to leave - as others would follow. Remainers know that.

From day 1, There never was going to be a Brexit agreement from Europe and thats where those hoity toity F*****s sitting in parliament were probably quite happy because they pretended there would be.......and they could get a deal.
Lies.
May said “a no deal is better than a bad deal”
Forgotten.
Ignored.

This is a horrendous deal.

Arbitration......Under Mays deal we’d be subject to future European Court rulings......how the **** are they going to be impartial to the Uk

For that reason alone the Uks bargaining position was flawed from day one as you can not negotiate with someone who will not negotiate.

The same mistakes was made yesterday by mp’s when they managed to push the vote through that will try to avoid a “no deal” scenario.

By taking that off the table you TOTALLY remove any bargaining power the UK has left and telegraph to the Europeans how desperate you are. They must be laughing their f****** nuts off at what’s going on and that makes me sick in my stomach.

Honestly, the winners have been sold out and the result and promises have been abandoned by those introducing caveats of this, that and the other that we did not vote on.

The vote was to leave.......nothing else matters.

It’s a disgrace what’s going on

Cheers Wattie
 

doodlebug

Junior Member
Messages
132
But, a bit like a divorce, it is almost impossible to get an agreement that both parties are happy with - the parties need to try to find a compromise that both can live with. And, as in most divorces, particularly involving children, there will always be some uncertainties, eg shared care, that will need to evolve as time goes by. The parties need to accept that at the outset and show at least some degree of trust that they will be play fair when riding out the inevitable bumps in the road. And then there is the ultimate role of the courts in arbitrating where the parties can’t agree.

These rules are mostly true of every negotiation I have ever been involved with. So why do so many people think that any Brexit agreement would be any different, apart from in a no deal scenario.
Maybe, but it's like getting divorced from each of your 27 wives. How do you think that'd work out for you?
 

outrun

Centenary Club
Messages
3,649
But, a bit like a divorce, it is almost impossible to get an agreement that both parties are happy with - the parties need to try to find a compromise that both can live with. And, as in most divorces, particularly involving children, there will always be some uncertainties, eg shared care, that will need to evolve as time goes by. The parties need to accept that at the outset and show at least some degree of trust that they will be play fair when riding out the inevitable bumps in the road. And then there is the ultimate role of the courts in arbitrating where the parties can’t agree.

These rules are mostly true of every negotiation I have ever been involved with. So why do so many people think that any Brexit agreement would be any different, apart from in a no deal scenario.
Yup, in every negotiation the best outcome is a deal that isn't quite what you had dreamed of, but that you can live with. Trouble is that most negotiations involve two parties that both have advantages and disadvantages to their position which leads to compromise and alignment. In this case, we don't really have any aces and the EU know this and is milking us for whatever they feel they can get. Whether that's money in one form or another or disadvantageous trade agreements that help their cause or whatever else. I'm starting to think that no-deal is the best scenario and they can try to argue in the EU courts for as long as they like. Spending £500M on lawyers to do that for 20 years is much cheaper than adhering to a deal would be and if we chose UK firms, the money stays in the economy anyway.

In the end, had we left the day after the vote with no deal and just an FU to the EU (that's copyrighted as a bumper sticker now!), would we really have been in a worse scenario now?

I clearly voted to remain but as the country didn't agree, we should have stood up tall, broadened our shoulders and told them where to go. Too late now.
 

GeoffCapes

Centenary Club
Messages
8,357
The thing to think about here is this.

Who wins if we have a 'Hard Brexit' - No one.
Who wins if we have a no deal Brexit (is this the same as a Hard Brexit) - No one.
Who wins if we stay in the EU - The financial institutions, trade organisations, the economy etc etc etc.
Who loses if we stay in the EU - The fisherman, errrrrr, help me out here, and I want industries organisations here not Clive the National Front member down the road.
Who wins if we make a deal that everyone is reasonably happy with - everyone. Kinda.


This has got to be the bottom line surely. If we can't make a deal, and it looks unlikely, surely the best thing to do is to change things from the inside?
As you will have no chance and a whole lot of financial pain from trying to do the same from the outside.
 
Messages
1,040
For me, the biggest issue here following the democratic decision of the British people, has been that the political parties, particularly but not exclusively those in opposition, have continuously and selifishly used Brexit as political capital and a means to personal and party political gain. If the Goverment, or possibly a committee of experts representing the Government, had been allowed to get on with what is (and should have been treated as) effectively a commercial negotiation behind closed doors, they would have been more likely to get the best compromise deal available from the EU, and we would have had very little of this very divisive, harmful and highly personally motivated debate in public.

Once it was clear that the UK was going to leave, whatever the outcome, the EU would have been more likely to negotiate for a “fair” deal. But for two years now we have just kept on showing the EU all our trump cards by playing this negotiation/leave or remain debate out in public. So can you really blame the EU for taking advantage.

If a deal had been negotiated behind closed doors, it could then have been presented to the British people as a “fair” deal with a greater degree of confidence, and as a fait accompli, and we would by now be focussed on getting on with it.
 
Messages
1,235
I think the EU has the moral high ground actually, it's a contract, we want out early, we pay up the contract, leave.

No deal is just what happens when you leave the gym for example, pay what you owe and go away. You can't say I'm not paying what I'm contractually bound to pay and/or ask if it's ok to use the pool and sauna....

No deal is the default, anything is just grace and favour.
 
Messages
1,021
I think the EU has the moral high ground actually, it's a contract, we want out early, we pay up the contract, leave.

No deal is just what happens when you leave the gym for example, pay what you owe and go away. You can't say I'm not paying what I'm contractually bound to pay and/or ask if it's ok to use the pool and sauna....

No deal is the default, anything is just grace and favour.
You’re incorrect.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/04/uk-could-quit-eu-without-paying-a-penny-say-lords
They are owed nowt but morally and out of goodwill we wanted to pay in return for a fair deal.
We didn’t get one.
Cheers Wattie