4200 clutch: difference between manual and CC (mechanical, friction)

Nibby

Member
Messages
2,028
Just checked where MD Clutches were based, about 2 miles from me in Herringswell, handy when the inevitable happens.
 

masertel

Member
Messages
102
Hi Catman

I got my manual clutch refurbish by MD in May last year and they only agreed to do it as it was being fitted to a manual clutch operated car. Unless something has changed since then I presume they still stay clear of clutches fitted to the CC. Agree it would be great if a better clutch could be found for the CC. To be fair I have never had a problem with the clutch itself and never worn one out even after 85000 miles in one car. It has always been the thrust bearing that failed on me (2 to date). I now run a cooling duct from the driver side front lower scoop to the clutch housing to keep thing a little cooler in there. I do a few track days and think the extra heat generated melts the bearing grease and as the bearing gets older the grease can leak out causing failure. Apparently the Hill engineering bearing has better seals and grease so will hopefully stand up the the punishment better- only 10000 mile clocked up on it to date so time will tell.

The main reason I asked MD to refurbish my clutch was because they could build it to take more power and torque to deal with the Nitrous installed in the car. The car has an FD remap, spring and anti roll bar plus Larini exhaust so puts out around 440 bhp but the Nitrous can add an extra 300 bhp at the flick of a switch (have it set conservatively for an extra150 bhp at the mo). The car and drive train handles the 590 bhp with ease and thanks to the nitrous controller the power comes in very smoothly and not like a hammer. Next step will be to take it to 640 bhp- have only had it installed since last November so will post full details when I've clocked up a few more miles and happy with the setup. To date have gone through 8 bottles of nitrous and very please with results to date. Its a good feeling knowing the Maser can smoke just about anything tailgating her.

All the best

Terry
 

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Heinz Siebeking

New Member
Messages
14
@Nibby: You are welcome.
@masertel: Nitrous ... impressive :) And thank you for your detailed information. Yes, the pressure plates look worn on the clutches, they have a mark where they might break under strain. About the relining: I contacted Mr Holman of MD Clutches three weeks ago. Current price for the CC (yes, the CC, not the manual, so yes, they offer to reline it) is £750 including flywheel service and shipping to Germany. I also read about the competitive prices of Belfast Brakes, wrote them, but got no answer. I contacted a local clutch service as well and expect their answer tomorrow.

About the manual clutch and the CC: From everything I have seen and measured, they look identical. Both are worn down to similar thicknesses (one 5.3 mm, one 5.4 mm). If the new manual clutch also had the approx. 6.34 mm reported elsewhere as original thickness I do not know. So, if anyone knows any difference ... Do not hesitate to write.
Regards,
Heinz
 

Gp79

Member
Messages
1,393
Hi Catman

I got my manual clutch refurbish by MD in May last year and they only agreed to do it as it was being fitted to a manual clutch operated car. Unless something has changed since then I presume they still stay clear of clutches fitted to the CC. Agree it would be great if a better clutch could be found for the CC. To be fair I have never had a problem with the clutch itself and never worn one out even after 85000 miles in one car. It has always been the thrust bearing that failed on me (2 to date). I now run a cooling duct from the driver side front lower scoop to the clutch housing to keep thing a little cooler in there. I do a few track days and think the extra heat generated melts the bearing grease and as the bearing gets older the grease can leak out causing failure. Apparently the Hill engineering bearing has better seals and grease so will hopefully stand up the the punishment better- only 10000 mile clocked up on it to date so time will tell.

The main reason I asked MD to refurbish my clutch was because they could build it to take more power and torque to deal with the Nitrous installed in the car. The car has an FD remap, spring and anti roll bar plus Larini exhaust so puts out around 440 bhp but the Nitrous can add an extra 300 bhp at the flick of a switch (have it set conservatively for an extra150 bhp at the mo). The car and drive train handles the 590 bhp with ease and thanks to the nitrous controller the power comes in very smoothly and not like a hammer. Next step will be to take it to 640 bhp- have only had it installed since last November so will post full details when I've clocked up a few more miles and happy with the setup. To date have gone through 8 bottles of nitrous and very please with results to date. Its a good feeling knowing the Maser can smoke just about anything tailgating her.

All the best

Terry

Please tell us more about the nitrous!

Who? What? Where? How much?

Much more cost effective than supercharger or turbos I’d imagine?

Thanks Greg
 

masertel

Member
Messages
102
@Nibby: You are welcome.
@masertel: Nitrous ... impressive :) And thank you for your detailed information. Yes, the pressure plates look worn on the clutches, they have a mark where they might break under strain. About the relining: I contacted Mr Holman of MD Clutches three weeks ago. Current price for the CC (yes, the CC, not the manual, so yes, they offer to reline it) is £750 including flywheel service and shipping to Germany. I also read about the competitive prices of Belfast Brakes, wrote them, but got no answer. I contacted a local clutch service as well and expect their answer tomorrow.

About the manual clutch and the CC: From everything I have seen and measured, they look identical. Both are worn down to similar thicknesses (one 5.3 mm, one 5.4 mm). If the new manual clutch also had the approx. 6.34 mm reported elsewhere as original thickness I do not know. So, if anyone knows any difference ... Do not hesitate to write.
Regards,
Heinz
Hi Heinz,

Good to here you got some positive feedback from MD Clutches- if indeed they can rebuild a clutch for the CC that works it will be a first as far as I'm aware. Before spending the money and time fitting it I think best to have some assurance that it will not only work but improve on the standard clutch otherwise you might be better fitting a new OEM unit. Definitely would not advise fitting a second hand clutch as only asking for trouble. Not sure if Belfast brakes are still going- I leave my handbrake shoes with a local garage and they send them off to get relined. Will try and find find out where they go and post but expect any good workshop will have a contact for getting this done.

I do not know what thickness the clutch friction material is but have some close up photos of an old and new one I fitted someDSC01096.JPGDSC01096.JPGDSC01097.JPGDSC01099.JPGDSC01101.JPGDSC01103.JPGDSC01105.JPGDSC01107.JPGDSC01109.JPG years ago (see attached).

Good luck getting it sorted and very much hope MD have indeed found a way to improve on the CC cars clutch!!

Terry
 

masertel

Member
Messages
102
Please tell us more about the nitrous!

Who? What? Where? How much?

Much more cost effective than supercharger or turbos I’d imagine?

Thanks Greg
Hi Greg

At £4500 including fitting a sophisticated Nitrous install is not cheap but much less expensive than any other method of forced induction and it doesn't mess with the fantastic naturally aspirated engine characteristics/noise- if anything it makes it sound better on full tilt. After much research I used equipment supplied by Wizard of Nos located in Doncaster and got them to do the install. I liked their setup as the controller has many safeguards built into the system to ensure safe operation and because the equipment is tried and tested. They did a good job and worked around a few issues with throttle engagement and picking up the engine RPM but overall the 4200 lends itself well to installing the kit.

To be honest I was having second thoughts when I arrive at their garage as it was quite hard to find an looked a little run down (understatement- basically its a portacabin with a lean-to). Anyway I remembered the saying don't judge a book by the cover and decided to proceed. At the end of the day it's skill and knowledge that count and not how flash the premises are.

Glad I took the plunge as the extra power comes in handy now and again!! It's still early days and I will open up a new thread when I'm happy the NOS is fully tested and let you know the pros and cons. In the meantime don't try and get past me on the road- you're goin te git smoked lol.

All the best

Terry
 

Gp79

Member
Messages
1,393
Hi Greg

At £4500 including fitting a sophisticated Nitrous install is not cheap but much less expensive than any other method of forced induction and it doesn't mess with the fantastic naturally aspirated engine characteristics/noise- if anything it makes it sound better on full tilt. After much research I used equipment supplied by Wizard of Nos located in Doncaster and got them to do the install. I liked their setup as the controller has many safeguards built into the system to ensure safe operation and because the equipment is tried and tested. They did a good job and worked around a few issues with throttle engagement and picking up the engine RPM but overall the 4200 lends itself well to installing the kit.

To be honest I was having second thoughts when I arrive at their garage as it was quite hard to find an looked a little run down (understatement- basically its a portacabin with a lean-to). Anyway I remembered the saying don't judge a book by the cover and decided to proceed. At the end of the day it's skill and knowledge that count and not how flash the premises are.

Glad I took the plunge as the extra power comes in handy now and again!! It's still early days and I will open up a new thread when I'm happy the NOS is fully tested and let you know the pros and cons. In the meantime don't try and get past me on the road- you're goin te git smoked lol.

All the best

Terry

Thanks for the detailed reply, I would
love to see it at full chat and try get past you / get smoked!

Where are you based as would be great to see it properly?

Thanks Greg
 

masertel

Member
Messages
102
Thanks for the detailed reply, I would
love to see it at full chat and try get past you / get smoked!

Where are you based as would be great to see it properly?

Thanks Greg
Hi Greg

I live in Portstewart sunny N.Ireland- happy to let you see the car anytime you're this way
 

Heinz Siebeking

New Member
Messages
14
Thank you very much for the photos, Masertel! I will study them thoroughly. I guess this thread 'rockets' in a different, albeit very interresting, direction meanwhile :)
 

hladun

Member
Messages
149
Masertel, the pictures of the two clutches are very interesting. A quick way to tell the clutch wear is to look at the "D" that visible on the edge of the clutch that's the grove in the face. When I look at your old clutch it looks like there was hardly any wear. Why did you replace the clutch?
 

masertel

Member
Messages
102
Masertel, the pictures of the two clutches are very interesting. A quick way to tell the clutch wear is to look at the "D" that visible on the edge of the clutch that's the grove in the face. When I look at your old clutch it looks like there was hardly any wear. Why did you replace the clutch?
Hi Hladun

Agree the old clutch looks to be is good condition and hard to believe it had over 70000 miles on it including at least 1000 track miles. The clutch did not go faulty but the thrust bearing was knackered so considering the amount of labour and while I had it all dissembled thought it wise to replace everything associated with the clutch (hill engineering thrust bearing, new clutch, flywheel and spigot bearing). I have a car lift and it took me 5 evenings and about 20 hours to do the job first time round. The second clutch I fitted still took me about 16 hours as is very labour intensive. Best to go with the belts & braces approach and change everything- thankfully as it's a manual no tricky setup using a SD2 machine to complete the task.
 

Corranga

Member
Messages
1,219
Hi Hladun

Agree the old clutch looks to be is good condition and hard to believe it had over 70000 miles on it including at least 1000 track miles. The clutch did not go faulty but the thrust bearing was knackered so considering the amount of labour and while I had it all dissembled thought it wise to replace everything associated with the clutch (hill engineering thrust bearing, new clutch, flywheel and spigot bearing). I have a car lift and it took me 5 evenings and about 20 hours to do the job first time round. The second clutch I fitted still took me about 16 hours as is very labour intensive. Best to go with the belts & braces approach and change everything- thankfully as it's a manual no tricky setup using a SD2 machine to complete the task.

Was the 70k miles on an original clutch with original thrust bearing etc?
My manual car has no evidence of a clutch replacement (it's just crossed 71k and is biting pretty high) but I'd assumed they all go through clutches in 25k or so like the CCs?
 

masertel

Member
Messages
102
Was the 70k miles on an original clutch with original thrust bearing etc?
My manual car has no evidence of a clutch replacement (it's just crossed 71k and is biting pretty high) but I'd assumed they all go through clutches in 25k or so like the CCs?
The car had 10000 miles on it when a got it so yes most likely the original clutch & thrust bearing. The clutch in the manual seems to last well in the manual cars provided you don't slip the clutch when taking off and changing gear. Over the years I've had to change 2 thrust bearings so it would appear they ware-out before the clutch. You can hear the bearing when it's about to fail as it make a grinding noise that gets more pronounced when you push the clutch pedal in. Hill Engineering do an improved bearing but can't comment on the one I have fitted as it has only done 10000 miles. Hope this helps.
 

Heinz Siebeking

New Member
Messages
14
Hi guys,
after studying my clutches and comparing them to all clutch pictures I found, I am sure this is one difference of a manual clutch to a CC clutch: The small holding fixtures, see the picture below. The manual clutch 196021 has them, the CC 196335 clutch has none. Now I know which one to use for "experimental" relining for my car :)
Regards,
Heinz

manual_clutch.jpg
 
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