15years and then it’s leccy only!

[Zep]

On Harry’s vid it showed 230 mile range and did 200 miles, it’s pretty much the same as the range meter on every car I have ever owned, with the exception that when it’s flat you can’t pick it up and carry it home like I could with my radio controlled car as a kid.

He did mention a number of up sides, the fact that your car is always full of volts in the morning rather than having to go to a petrol station. But overall we are not there yet on BEVs.

In any event, they will ban the sale of new ICE only cars and some of the mild (****) hybrids. My experience of having a hybrid has been overwhelmingly positive, the economy is great, it’s cheaper to run, cheaper on tax and goes like **** when you combine both the leccy and the dead dino drive.

 

[Silvercat]

On Harry’s vid it showed 230 mile range and did 200 miles, it’s pretty much the same as the range meter on every car I have ever owned, with the exception that when it’s flat you can’t pick it up and carry it home like I could with my radio controlled car as a kid.

He did mention a number of up sides, the fact that your car is always full of volts in the morning rather than having to go to a petrol station. But overall we are not there yet on BEVs.

In any event, they will ban the sale of new ICE only cars and some of the mild (*) hybrids. My experience of having a hybrid has been overwhelmingly positive, the economy is great, it’s cheaper to run, cheaper on tax and goes like * when you combine both the leccy and the dead dino drive.

FCEV's will become the future...watch this space.

 

[GeoffCapes]

I think the bigger issue is needing to generate enough electricity from wind / solar etc to charge them all,

This is the biggest issue. To replace half the cars on the road in the UK with electric ones we need to generate 4 times what we generate now.
And that for just the cars. Add the buildings, industry etc etc etc it's just not possible.

Especially when the current crop of nuclear power stations only have a few years left, and as far as I'm aware we're only building one presently.
There's a ban on building onshore wind farms, so we're not helping ourselves. You need planning permission for large scale ground mount solar PV farms which takes at least 12 months.

There's even talk of phasing out gas boilers for new build domestic homes in 5 years. Putting more strain on the grid.

The maths just don't add up.


On the flip side there seems to be more companies looking at hydrogen power. Especially for HGV's and shipping. Worcester-Bosch have just successfully trialled a hydrogen powered boiler system and are looking to start installing that in the next couple of years.

My money is still on hydrogen being the way to go for car as opposed to electricity.
And they'll still make a nice sound!

 

[Zep]

FCEV's will become the future...watch this space.

It’s certainly a possibility but far from cut and dried. Hydrogen is very abundant but it’s usually very strongly attached to another element which makes it expensive to produce and then it needs distributing. A BEV with a FC range extender? I can see that.

 

[Wattie]

Well let’s reverse the scenario...,in cars what was going on 15 years ago?
They were good but not as good as todays.

If in 15 years there were comfortable, fast, long range, technologically brilliant electric cars (or other) that captured a Maserati V8 noise or the emotion perfectly (surely the blips and pops and crackles are the hard thing) we’d all buy one...

 

[Gazcw]

Better get building all those nuclear plants to keep up with demand and surround us with windmills as a back up

 

[Zep]

This is the biggest issue. To replace half the cars on the road in the UK with electric ones we need to generate 4 times what we generate now.
And that for just the cars. Add the buildings, industry etc etc etc it's just not possible.

Especially when the current crop of nuclear power stations only have a few years left, and as far as I'm aware we're only building one presently.
There's a ban on building onshore wind farms, so we're not helping ourselves. You need planning permission for large scale ground mount solar PV farms which takes at least 12 months.

There's even talk of phasing out gas boilers for new build domestic homes in 5 years. Putting more strain on the grid.

The maths just don't add up.


On the flip side there seems to be more companies looking at hydrogen power. Especially for HGV's and shipping. Worcester-Bosch have just successfully trialled a hydrogen powered boiler system and are looking to start installing that in the next couple of years.

My money is still on hydrogen being the way to go for car as opposed to electricity.
And they'll still make a nice sound!

I see your point Mark, but how do you get hold of the Hydrogen?

At the moment there are four main sources for the commercial production of hydrogen: natural gas, oil, coal, and electrolysis; which account for 48%, 30%, 18% and 4%.

So the hydrogen answer is about the transport of energy in a dense form, but it isn’t about reduction in CO2 production.

 

[hashluck]

Well let’s reverse the scenario...,in cars what was going on 15 years ago?
They were good but not as good as todays.

If in 15 years there were comfortable, fast, long range, technologically brilliant electric cars that captured a Maserati V8 noise or the emotion perfectly (surely the blips and pops and crackles are the hard thing) we’d all buy one...

I am not sure. Most people yes but right now my daily is from 2007 and it is superb, has everything I need and nothing I don't but then I want to drive when I drive, not browse the internet

 

[GeoffCapes]

I see your point Mark, but how do you get hold of the Hydrogen?

At the moment there are four main sources for the commercial production of hydrogen: natural gas, oil, coal, and electrolysis; which account for 48%, 30%, 18% and 4%.

So the hydrogen answer is about the transport of energy in a dense form, but it isn’t about reduction in CO2 production.

From speaking with a bloke I know who's a doctor in physics and a professor in chemistry (or is it the other way round?) spent a few months at a huge electrolysis plant in Germany.
He says that the big petrochemicals are investing massive sums into electrolysis and he reckons the cost is decreasing all the time whilst production is going through the roof.
He said that in his opinion in the next 10 years hydrogen will be a cost effective alternative to electric vehicles.

 

[Navcorr]

He said that in his opinion in the next 10 years hydrogen will be a cost effective alternative to electric vehicles.

Using Hydrogen is not the main issue - using it safely would be.
The explosive limits for petrol in oxygen are approx. 1 to 8 %.
The limits for Hydrogen are approx. 4 to 95 %.
You can draw you're own conclusions re: the risk following an RTA.

 

[Zep]

From speaking with a bloke I know who's a doctor in physics and a professor in chemistry (or is it the other way round?) spent a few months at a huge electrolysis plant in Germany.
He says that the big petrochemicals are investing massive sums into electrolysis and he reckons the cost is decreasing all the time whilst production is going through the roof.
He said that in his opinion in the next 10 years hydrogen will be a cost effective alternative to electric vehicles.

You are aware, I assume, what the “electro” bit of electrolysis stands for right? So, using electricity to split hydrogen from oxygen is an extremely energy intensive process.

Hydrogen could be the answer, but there is still the question how to make the power to make it, that then needs transporting, using more hydrogen. It’s highly reactive, much more so than petrol, so it needs to be safe.

I’m not an advocate of BEVs, but there are a lot of holes in the hydrogen argument.

 

[GeoffCapes]

You are aware, I assume, what the “electro” bit of electrolysis stands for right? So, using electricity to split hydrogen from oxygen is an extremely energy intensive process.

Hydrogen could be the answer, but there is still the question how to make the power to make it, that then needs transporting, using more hydrogen. It’s highly reactive, much more so than petrol, so it needs to be safe.

I’m not an advocate of BEVs, but there are a lot of holes in the hydrogen argument.

I'm aware of the electro bit. I believe the electrolysis plant is powered by solar and wind. If it's not currently (no pun intended), it will be shortly.

I'm not up to speed on the whys an wherefores, but the guy I know certainly knows his stuff so I'm happy to go along with what he says on the subject.
Especially as I'm no engineer!

 

[GeoffCapes]

Using Hydrogen is not the main issue - using it safely would be.
The explosive limits for petrol in oxygen are approx. 1 to 8 %.
The limits for Hydrogen are approx. 4 to 95 %.
You can draw you're own conclusions re: the risk following an RTA.

Bit like electric cars and their endlessly burning batteries......

 

[Wanderer]

Do electric only cars batteries go flat over time? There's a Tesla on the car park at work, been stood at least three weeks, does it lose any charge just being sat there?

 

[lifes2short]

Fifteen years later, man was on the moon

sorry couldn't resist

 

[Zep]

I'm aware of the electro bit. I believe the electrolysis plant is powered by solar and wind. If it's not currently (no pun intended), it will be shortly.

I'm not up to speed on the whys an wherefores, but the guy I know certainly knows his stuff so I'm happy to go along with what he says on the subject.
Especially as I'm no engineer!

My point being, that if BEVs need lots of power, so does the production of hydrogen. But once you have that hydrogen, you have to take it to where it is needed, which has an energy cost. Let’s not get into clean water being used either. Your chap is involved in the hydrogen industry, it stands to reason he will espouse the virtues. It might well happen, but it isn’t a silver bullet.

 

[Zep]

Do electric only cars batteries go flat over time? There's a Tesla on the car park at work, been stood at least three weeks, does it lose any charge just being sat there?

Li-ion self discharge at a rate of 1-2% a month after an initial 5% in the first 24 hours.

 

[outrun]

Using Hydrogen is not the main issue - using it safely would be.
The explosive limits for petrol in oxygen are approx. 1 to 8 %.
The limits for Hydrogen are approx. 4 to 95 %.
You can draw you're own conclusions re: the risk following an RTA.

Yup, strapping ourselves and the kids into mini Hydrogen bombs just to keep Greta happy. And the amount of energy required to safely extract it renders the process pretty stupid in the first place, unless there are massive breakthroughs in production methodology.

The amount required to upgrade the grid to support massive uptake of EVs would make HS2 seem like a bargain. And we don't have the money to do it anyway as we are not Norway. It's just a government saying what it thinks the Millennials want to hear, knowing they will be on the beach when 2035 comes so they can say anything.

Yet again, the sentiment is correct but the focus is in the wrong place. The largest contributor to emissions is shipping, perhaps spend some billions on how to handle that. It's so much easier for the militant brigade to chastise their friends and neighbours, much more difficult to pressure the true contributors.

I wonder when we will see politicians with the Kahunas required to tell the truth and focus the efforts on the actual issues, not the convenient targets.

 

[GeoffCapes]

Your chap is involved in the hydrogen industry, it stands to reason he will espouse the virtues. It might well happen, but it isn’t a silver bullet.

He's not actually, he's advising them on how to get the best from the renewables on site to get maximum generation and what additional things they can implement to get the most from the energy they do generate.

 

[GeoffCapes]

Yet again, the sentiment is correct but the focus is in the wrong place. The largest contributor to emissions is shipping, perhaps spend some billions on how to handle that. It's so much easier for the militant brigade to chastise their friends and neighbours, much more difficult to pressure the true contributors.

Nailed it. Been saying this for years!

Motorists are an easy target. Shipping companies will just change the flag to avoid the legislation.