Diagnosing the F1 System

FIFTY

Member
Messages
3,100
Further to this discussion on the Launch X431 system - has anyone used it to adjust the suspension? I notice on the KW suspension site they mention using the SD2 to turn the Skyhook system off when fitting KW3 coil overs:

https://www.kwsuspensions.co.uk/sho...i0eFJl8*BG3g../56/Street_Performance/35243002

see installation manual part...

Of course this does beg the question whether in the interim you could simply switch the Skyhook off and retain the faster gearshifts and exhaust noise?? Anyone done this with the Launch or SD2/3??

You need a SD2/3 and a laptop with dealer software combined in order to re-flash the dash ECU with the new settings.

Without the laptop the SD2/3 can only access those settings as "read-only" so you will not be able to change anything

If the Launch can even access those menus I highly doubt it can change the settings

Also it is not a matter of changing one setting and switching off SPORTS mode... As I suggested above the entire ECU firmware needs to be reconfigured from blank factory settings
 

spkennyuk

Member
Messages
5,930
Further to this discussion on the Launch X431 system - has anyone used it to adjust the suspension? I notice on the KW suspension site they mention using the SD2 to turn the Skyhook system off when fitting KW3 coil overs:

https://www.kwsuspensions.co.uk/sho...i0eFJl8*BG3g../56/Street_Performance/35243002

see installation manual part...

Of course this does beg the question whether in the interim you could simply switch the Skyhook off and retain the faster gearshifts and exhaust noise?? Anyone done this with the Launch or SD2/3??

The launch can access the suspension software to read fault codes and run a self test. It cant turn off the suspension on a permanent basis.
 

tulit

Member
Messages
110
No unfortunately it (launch x431) today doesn't support turning it off.

Sent from my SM-A515W using Tapatalk
 

exporschdrivr

Junior Member
Messages
98
Yes you can use the launch x431 to set up a new clutch. IIRC Its the 1st option from the special functions menu in the TCU module.

I have had no need to use that section but my understanding is that it will clear the clutch closed position point and then read the correct new closed position point from the clutch position sensor. That figure is then writen as the new baseline clutch closed position point which is known as the self calibrated clutch closed position.

There are a few youtube videos kicking around where they have used the launch system to change the clutch on Maserati and Ferrari cars. IIRC forum member lambertis used it when doing his clutch change blog.

Once you start driving the car after you have fitted the new clutch and reset the baseline starting closed position point the car reads the new closed position point with every gear change and reports this as the new clutch closed position. This then allows you to calculate the clutch wear.

The correct formula for working out the clutch wear is:-

Self calibrated clutch closed position number minus the new clutch closed position. Divide that number by 5.56 which is the measurement of the clutch disc minus the metal plate you then multiply this number by 100 to give you the clutch used amount.

Launch as discussed currently uses 7 instead of 5.56 when it calculates the clutch wear so reports an optimistic used rate.

As an example of the above calculation.

Self calibrated clutch closed position reads 21.44

New clutch closed position reads 18.88

Formula is : 21.44 minus 18.88 = 2.56 divided by 5.56 = 0.4604 multiply by 100 = 46% clutch used


I bought also a Launch X431 Pros Mini because of problems with my 2005 Spyder which shuts off after heating up. TCU fault codes are P1710 Clutch Position Sensor an P1774 Clutch Hydraulic failure.

But as I was in there I also readout the clutch.

My readouts are:

Self calibrated clutch closed position reads 22.86mm

New clutch closed position reads 24mm

I do not understand why the new clutch closed position has a higher value than the self calibrated clutch closed position?! And therefore I have a - at the wear-index.

So right now I don´t know if the clutch is brand new or very used and needs a replacement. I bought the car a few months ago without any informations regarding the clutch?

Is it possible to mess up the values? Maybe the previous owner or a workshop did something wrong?!

Car is shifting good and has no slippage.
 

spkennyuk

Member
Messages
5,930
I bought also a Launch X431 Pros Mini because of problems with my 2005 Spyder which shuts off after heating up. TCU fault codes are P1710 Clutch Position Sensor an P1774 Clutch Hydraulic failure.

But as I was in there I also readout the clutch.

My readouts are:

Self calibrated clutch closed position reads 22.86mm

New clutch closed position reads 24mm

I do not understand why the new clutch closed position has a higher value than the self calibrated clutch closed position?! And therefore I have a - at the wear-index.

So right now I don´t know if the clutch is brand new or very used and needs a replacement. I bought the car a few months ago without any informations regarding the clutch?

Is it possible to mess up the values? Maybe the previous owner or a workshop did something wrong?!

Car is shifting good and has no slippage.

P1774 means the tcu registered the clutch in a different position than expected as the tcu calculates an expected position.

So if your clutch position sensor is failing that would account for the P1774 error code.

As far as the clutch position readings go it is entirely possible that somebody messed with the settings but at the moment if the clutch position sensor is failing then data can be reported wrong.

If you dont know the history of the car it may have been sat for awhile and things can start to get sticky.

When you say it shuts off after heating up. Is this while your driving or static on the driveway ?

If you can run the car then it is possible to read the live data streams for the clutch and pump etc. This will help establish if there really is a hydraulic issue in either the pump or the actuator or if it is purely down to the clutch position sensor looking like it is failing and giving bad data. In the live data stream section you can select things like pump pressure from a list of about 70 options.

Pm me if you want and i can guide you into the right options for the data streams.

Sounds to me like the wiring on the clutch position sensor is breaking down as the car warms up and eventually produces no signal and tells the engine to shut down.

The wiring is on the right hand side of the bell housing. If you can get access it is worth checking for any visable cracks or break in the wiring.
 
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exporschdrivr

Junior Member
Messages
98
Thank you for your offer:thumb3:

I drove the car just once and everything was fine. Gearchanges where fine/good and the clutch where not slipping. Until I got the cambiocorsa flash symbol at the dashboard. It was then running until I shut it down. The engine didn‘t turn at all as I was trying to turn it on again then... after several tryouts the engine turned, but had no ignition... and then finally the engine started, but was turned off after a few seconds. With the same errorcode clutch position sensor. It was always the first errorcode which occurs.

I have had the car trailered back home and never drove it again on public roads.

So all tryouts and testing now is made in my driveway. When I open the car I can hear the F1 pump, it takes just several seconds until the system is pressureized. The pump is not kicking in for over 5 minutes when I leave the car with ignition on.

When I start the car cold everything is fine. I can put it in 1, N and reverse and the car moves as I was driving it for the first time. But after several minutes, when everything gets its temperature, the cambiocorsa flash is coming and then the car shuts off and its not possible to turn it on again. And if it´s turn on it shutts off immadetly until the car/clutch is cold again.

I own the x431 since yesterday and I was not able to do the readouts before and yesterday the failure was not occuring... but I have readout the live data.

F1 Pump turned on as the pressure drops at ca. 38bar or below and pressurized the system up to 50bar and more. As I wasn‘t changing gears the pressure was constantly. It takes 3 shifts to drop the pressure from 50 to below 40bar.

Leaking rate at the clutch solenoid is 18.

I was not able to detect some values which are obviously wrong... besides that the new clutch closed position has a higher value as the actual closed position....

The wearindex is 4300.

But I will try it today once again until the car shuts down.

Edit:
But what are the initial values for the new clutch closed position at the 4200?
With my actual clutch closed position I could then estimate if my clutch is on it‘s end of lifetime or halfway trough.
 
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tonycharente

Member
Messages
182
But what are the initial values for the new clutch closed position at the 4200?
With my actual clutch closed position I could then estimate if my clutch is on it‘s end of lifetime or halfway trough.

Here's my info from an earlier post in this same thread:-

I confirm that it was able to read all the cambiocorsa stuff (I read PIS, “New Closed Clutch Position” (NCCP), “Self-Calibrated Closed Clutch Position” (S-CCCP) and % Clutch Wear), and I looked to be able to write a PIS of my choice, but I didn't try that as my car drives fine - and "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" (!!!).
I'd seen that these measurements should be taken after a decent drive using the gears - so I measured everything twice (cold and hot). Also I read everything both using the Maserati Gransport/Coupé/Spyder module and using the Ferrari F430 module. My late 4200 is "CFC231" which the F430 module includes, whereas the Maserati module only has CFC 201. In all cases it gave me the same PIS (4.97). However the Clutch Wear percentage differed as between both hot and cold, and also between “CFC231” and “CFC201”. In both cases the CFC231 readings were more pessimistic but corresponded almost exactly to the "(S-CCCP minus NCCP) divided by 5.6" calculation. The CFC201 readings had the same S-CCCP and NCCP figures as the CFC231, but, it would appear, the wrong calculation. In all cases the hot readings were less pessimistic than the cold ones, due to a slightly lower S-CCCP. No idea why...
Taking the hot CFC231 readings I got 18.71, 18.39 and 5.71%, this latter being exactly in line with the "divide by 5.6" calculation. My clutch was replaced at 2885 kms ago, so that’s a rate of clutch wear of about 2% per 1000 km, which seems about right to me.


So, in answer to your question, on my late model 4200 the NCCP was (and still is...) 18.39.

Hope this helps.
Tony
 
Messages
376
Would be handy if someone could write up the Key programming/Coding process ??.

I have two new keys that need programming to the car. :)
 

spkennyuk

Member
Messages
5,930
Thank you for your offer:thumb3:

I drove the car just once and everything was fine. Gearchanges where fine/good and the clutch where not slipping. Until I got the cambiocorsa flash symbol at the dashboard. It was then running until I shut it down. The engine didn‘t turn at all as I was trying to turn it on again then... after several tryouts the engine turned, but had no ignition... and then finally the engine started, but was turned off after a few seconds. With the same errorcode clutch position sensor. It was always the first errorcode which occurs.

I have had the car trailered back home and never drove it again on public roads.

So all tryouts and testing now is made in my driveway. When I open the car I can hear the F1 pump, it takes just several seconds until the system is pressureized. The pump is not kicking in for over 5 minutes when I leave the car with ignition on.

When I start the car cold everything is fine. I can put it in 1, N and reverse and the car moves as I was driving it for the first time. But after several minutes, when everything gets its temperature, the cambiocorsa flash is coming and then the car shuts off and its not possible to turn it on again. And if it´s turn on it shutts off immadetly until the car/clutch is cold again.

I own the x431 since yesterday and I was not able to do the readouts before and yesterday the failure was not occuring... but I have readout the live data.

F1 Pump turned on as the pressure drops at ca. 38bar or below and pressurized the system up to 50bar and more. As I wasn‘t changing gears the pressure was constantly. It takes 3 shifts to drop the pressure from 50 to below 40bar.

Leaking rate at the clutch solenoid is 18.

I was not able to detect some values which are obviously wrong... besides that the new clutch closed position has a higher value as the actual closed position....

The wearindex is 4300.

But I will try it today once again until the car shuts down.

Edit:
But what are the initial values for the new clutch closed position at the 4200?
With my actual clutch closed position I could then estimate if my clutch is on it‘s end of lifetime or halfway trough.

The new clutch should have been measured when installed to get the new clutch closed position as every clutch will vary slightly.

It will vary between 18.4xx and 19.xxx as an approximate guide. Most of the cars i have seen have been around the 18.95 area.
 

spkennyuk

Member
Messages
5,930
Would be handy if someone could write up the Key programming/Coding process ??.

I have two new keys that need programming to the car. :)

Probably best to start a new thread on that subject along with the car details. Which always helps.

The alarm pairing and car pairing for example on a 4200 are two different things.
 
Messages
376
Probably best to start a new thread on that subject along with the car details. Which always helps.

The alarm pairing and car pairing for example on a 4200 are two different things.
Good point this one is 2004 4.2 QPV. I was just relaying this to the thread starter 1st post comment
 

exporschdrivr

Junior Member
Messages
98
The new clutch should have been measured when installed to get the new clutch closed position as every clutch will vary slightly.

It will vary between 18.4xx and 19.xxx as an approximate guide. Most of the cars i have seen have been around the 18.95 area.

Thank you. Doing the math my clutch is nearly 70% worn...
 

Steve4200

Member
Messages
195
Thank you. Doing the math my clutch is nearly 70% worn...

Whilst running the engine after a 20 mins warmup - time the F1 pump interval in Neutral and then in 1st with foot on brake.

Don’t change any components based on faults codes alone......

Regards
 
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exporschdrivr

Junior Member
Messages
98
Yesterday I tested again my 4200 with the Launch until the failure of my Masa occurs.

First step was to start the engine. While the engine was warming up I read the live of the Bosch Motronic.

Here are the pictures. Maybe some of you will find something unusual?! For me everything looks fine/okay.

841898419084191841928419384194

After a few minutes the engine shut off, so I changed to the TCU.

So this is the ECU I have:
84195

So this is the fault I read out:
84196

And here all readouts from the Live Data:

84197

I will add the other 7 of 8 Screenshots in the next posting
 

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exporschdrivr

Junior Member
Messages
98
Here are the other 7:
84199842008420184202842038420484205


Does somebody see something unusual?

The clutch position sensor was the only fault which was stored. As this failure occurs it wasn't possible to change the gear or start the engine.

Gear changing was only possible as I changed to the actuation surface and started to change the gears via the Launch.

So my question here: Is it just the Sensor and/or also something else?

Also the Motronic showed after the failure code of the TCU P1586 Engine Off. I think this is following of the Sensor issue....

Thanks for your feedback in advance.
 
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mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,033
Gear engagements with wrong shifts 29?
Also notice the menu lists CFC201 but then the gearbox model CFC231?
Must buy this Launch!
 

Steve4200

Member
Messages
195
Thank you very much for your feedback and looking through my screenshots!

So the other values seems to be ok, right? Nothing unusual?

Did you try this ??

Whilst running the engine after a 20 mins warmup - time the F1 pump interval in Neutral and then in 1st with foot on brake.

Don’t change any components based on faults codes alone......


The above meaning the Launch system and others are just mass produced number displays , the manufactures of these devices just sign up to an expensive database of the vehicle diagnostic functional specifications then write the code.

We are the designers and supplier of the EasyMAS system and agree the other systems available on the face of it look very promising and are what they are.

EasyMAS though has been driven using Maserati vehicle knowledge based on problems facing many owners. Our system takes in the numbers and checks them against the vehicles specifications and known issues.

No Maserati ECU can self-diagnose to a point of 100% accuracy based on fault codes alone , it’s a best guess and why many times components are changed by main dealers and after driving home with your wallet empty the fault returns.

So in this case it may just be the “Clutch position sensor” but other operational tests need to be performed like the timing test at the top of this post.

We have seen the same problem resulting in new battery, ECU, clutch position sensor, pump, relay, accumulator, position potentiometers, etc etc. The actual fault was a loose bypass screw on the hydraulic valve pack.

Regards
 
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