Are you worried yet.

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D Walker

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From Bob Stewart MP fb page
Over the last 4 weeks I have been contacted by four separate companies variously saying that they have NHS equipment such as masks, gowns and ventilators but they are having great difficulty in dealing with those that procure such items for the NHS. They told me that, in their experience, the NHS preferred to deal with people from whom it had always bought equipment and they were effectively frozen out. Their request to me was how could they get their produce into the health system as there was a pressing need for it?

I suppose NHS procurers have been inundated with offers of help from potential providers of tests or ventilators or protective equipment who have been trying, in effect, to sell their services to a single customer. Perhaps our NHS system is overwhelmed and cannot cope. By the way I did try to get the 4 potential suppliers alongside the NHS procurement department but I have heard nothing back (but don’t really expect to either).

It has made me think though. We are all in total admiration of what the staff in the NHS are doing – especially the risks they are running. But is the NHS as an organisation, not its magnificent personnel, as good as it can be? Is it institutionally fit for purpose? After all, when this is over perhaps, perhaps we should look again at our National Treasure. We often think the NHS to be beyond compare but is it really?

Looking around Europe at other health systems Germany stands out clearly. The figures are indicative. As of today, Germany has lost 4,586 people killed by Coronavirus whereas more than three and a half times that number of citizens (16,060) have died in the UK. Have we got something wrong?

Nobody doubts that the NHS is filled with dedicated and very brave people and parts of it are superb but have they been let down by its structure and governance? Germany seems to have been much more successful at managing the COVID-19 crisis than any other major European country and yet it doesn’t actually have a national health service in any way like ours.

Each of its sixteen federal states has individual responsibility for its own health service which is paid for by compulsory health insurance levied on those who work. It is a very complicated system which involves payments from individuals, companies and government subsidies but it works.

Anyone who wishes it can go to any specialist doctor they like and there is no need for a middle man/woman (a GP) before so doing. There don’t seem to be waiting lists or delays for rehabilitation. Wow, that seems great. Obviously, the German health system needs over-capacity but in a crisis what an advantage. I understand that at the start of this COVID-19 Crisis Germany had 34 intensive care beds for every 100,000 of its population. We had 6.6 beds and the European average was 11.5 beds for the same numbers of people.

Germany does not have our unwieldy central diagnostic system. At the start of the crisis it had 176 testing centres, part of localised arrangements. We compared very unfavourably with that. I cannot find the exact numbers now but seem to recall we had less than 50 such laboratories.

I know this may not be accepted by those who love the state running everything but in Germany laboratory efficiency and capacity seems much higher than here at home because of a high degree of de-centralisation, privatisation as well as competition. Their health system is not centrally controlled and all sixteen federal states can make their own choices and decisions. It works too.

But the German health system comes at a cost. According to the Office of National Statistics, in 2017 the health costs per person were £2,989 a year whereas in Germany £4,432 was spent. It is a blinding glimpse of the obvious that spending more gets a better health service. So, would each of us be prepared to pay 33 per cent more on that part of our taxes dedicated to health? Right now, I know we would and I’m pretty certain, even before the crisis, such additional taxes just for the NHS would have received a fair wind too. But it is not just about money – although that seriously helps. As it is set-up at the moment, I wonder whether a cash injection of another third would give us the choice and over-capacity of the German health system?

We often almost by instinct – and with national pride - defend our NHS as being beyond reproach and a model for the World to follow. After all, it has been around long enough for other countries to copy our lead. I wonder why they have not then? In truth though there is no other country with a system anywhere near the NHS in its set-up.

When the COVID-19 Crisis is over so much will never be the same again. That probably includes the NHS as well. I repeat that individuals and parts of the NHS – maybe not its procurement side though - have performed magnificently. We all know that. Please do not think I am not knocking the NHS. It looks after everyone – rich or poor – regardless. That is superb. But I am just suggesting that we might consider, after this crisis is past, how the NHS can be adapted to be even better in the future.
 

lozcb

Member
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12,479
From Bob Stewart MP fb page
Over the last 4 weeks I have been contacted by four separate companies variously saying that they have NHS equipment such as masks, gowns and ventilators but they are having great difficulty in dealing with those that procure such items for the NHS. They told me that, in their experience, the NHS preferred to deal with people from whom it had always bought equipment and they were effectively frozen out. Their request to me was how could they get their produce into the health system as there was a pressing need for it?

I suppose NHS procurers have been inundated with offers of help from potential providers of tests or ventilators or protective equipment who have been trying, in effect, to sell their services to a single customer. Perhaps our NHS system is overwhelmed and cannot cope. By the way I did try to get the 4 potential suppliers alongside the NHS procurement department but I have heard nothing back (but don’t really expect to either).

It has made me think though. We are all in total admiration of what the staff in the NHS are doing – especially the risks they are running. But is the NHS as an organisation, not its magnificent personnel, as good as it can be? Is it institutionally fit for purpose? After all, when this is over perhaps, perhaps we should look again at our National Treasure. We often think the NHS to be beyond compare but is it really?

Looking around Europe at other health systems Germany stands out clearly. The figures are indicative. As of today, Germany has lost 4,586 people killed by Coronavirus whereas more than three and a half times that number of citizens (16,060) have died in the UK. Have we got something wrong?

Nobody doubts that the NHS is filled with dedicated and very brave people and parts of it are superb but have they been let down by its structure and governance? Germany seems to have been much more successful at managing the COVID-19 crisis than any other major European country and yet it doesn’t actually have a national health service in any way like ours.

Each of its sixteen federal states has individual responsibility for its own health service which is paid for by compulsory health insurance levied on those who work. It is a very complicated system which involves payments from individuals, companies and government subsidies but it works.

Anyone who wishes it can go to any specialist doctor they like and there is no need for a middle man/woman (a GP) before so doing. There don’t seem to be waiting lists or delays for rehabilitation. Wow, that seems great. Obviously, the German health system needs over-capacity but in a crisis what an advantage. I understand that at the start of this COVID-19 Crisis Germany had 34 intensive care beds for every 100,000 of its population. We had 6.6 beds and the European average was 11.5 beds for the same numbers of people.

Germany does not have our unwieldy central diagnostic system. At the start of the crisis it had 176 testing centres, part of localised arrangements. We compared very unfavourably with that. I cannot find the exact numbers now but seem to recall we had less than 50 such laboratories.

I know this may not be accepted by those who love the state running everything but in Germany laboratory efficiency and capacity seems much higher than here at home because of a high degree of de-centralisation, privatisation as well as competition. Their health system is not centrally controlled and all sixteen federal states can make their own choices and decisions. It works too.

But the German health system comes at a cost. According to the Office of National Statistics, in 2017 the health costs per person were £2,989 a year whereas in Germany £4,432 was spent. It is a blinding glimpse of the obvious that spending more gets a better health service. So, would each of us be prepared to pay 33 per cent more on that part of our taxes dedicated to health? Right now, I know we would and I’m pretty certain, even before the crisis, such additional taxes just for the NHS would have received a fair wind too. But it is not just about money – although that seriously helps. As it is set-up at the moment, I wonder whether a cash injection of another third would give us the choice and over-capacity of the German health system?

We often almost by instinct – and with national pride - defend our NHS as being beyond reproach and a model for the World to follow. After all, it has been around long enough for other countries to copy our lead. I wonder why they have not then? In truth though there is no other country with a system anywhere near the NHS in its set-up.

When the COVID-19 Crisis is over so much will never be the same again. That probably includes the NHS as well. I repeat that individuals and parts of the NHS – maybe not its procurement side though - have performed magnificently. We all know that. Please do not think I am not knocking the NHS. It looks after everyone – rich or poor – regardless. That is superb. But I am just suggesting that we might consider, after this crisis is past, how the NHS can be adapted to be even better in the future.

Definitely a noteworthy piece
 

Silvercat

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1,166
When SARS first appeared, there wasn’t a mad dash to build 10,000-bed hospitals in China. They knew what they were dealing with from the word go and were warned by those at the coal face exactly what was about to happen. It seems logical that those guys were working on it or had manufactured it, but I doubt we’ll ever find out the truth.
Intelligence Services will already know. That's why Trump is starting to ask questions of China ( apart from deflecting attention from his own abysmal handling of the crisis in the US). This wont get swept under the carpet and there will be repercussions at some point for sure.
 

Silvercat

Member
Messages
1,166
So, for clarity whose heads should roll, you know, from the bottom up. Please give specifics. Genuine question.
(and there is no disagreement from me, some people have obviously behaved shamelessly and without thought).
Chaps, at the heart of all this lies the leadership team and the civil servants who are running the show...its symptomatic of successive govts over 30 + years not properly investing in the NHS and the fact that the leaders tend to move on every couple of years in the civil service so there is no real ownership. So the situation is much more complex than just cosying on up to your favourite Supplier.
 

Phil the Brit

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1,499
You dont want much ..............................you aint working for the NHS by any chance Phil , that what they do pass the buck onto someone else , instead of doing some research for themselves lol ;)

The procurement departments ARE part of the NHS.
You cannot be happy with the current situation we find ourselves in surely?
And, yes, I do want much. I want a system that give us the best results of all the European contries, not the WORST. The way we are currently headed, we will be just that.
 

BJL

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1,364
Bat Sh1t Soup tastes just like ................................Bat Sh1t:bigcry3::bigcry3:
Photo to follow
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,479
When SARS first appeared, there wasn’t a mad dash to build 10,000-bed hospitals in China. They knew what they were dealing with from the word go and were warned by those at the coal face exactly what was about to happen. It seems logical that those guys were working on it or had manufactured it, but I doubt we’ll ever find out the truth.

So those who live in glass houses shouldnt use a railgun , I think i get what your saying Ian
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
The procurement departments ARE part of the NHS.
You cannot be happy with the current situation we find ourselves in surely?
And, yes, I do want much. I want a system that give us the best results of all the European contries, not the WORST. The way we are currently headed, we will be just that.
The only health system I've experience (in Europe) worse than the NHS (not dissing the NHS, they move mountains despite underfunding and terminally poor managment) is the Irish one - the HSE, which has sort of been left to the really impoverished, everyone else has private health care.

Danish and German ones both great.
 

lozcb

Member
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12,479
Just had my monthly chat with my fixer in Senegal , they have a pretty good health system around Dakar all french colonial based system , they arent and havent been locked down just on curfew and social distancing , 3.5 weeks ago they had 3 cases die of corona virus , and several hundred test positive , today they have had just 5 die from Corona and still a few hundred positive and i cant fathom it ,
 

Silvercat

Member
Messages
1,166
From Bob Stewart MP fb page
Over the last 4 weeks I have been contacted by four separate companies variously saying that they have NHS equipment such as masks, gowns and ventilators but they are having great difficulty in dealing with those that procure such items for the NHS. They told me that, in their experience, the NHS preferred to deal with people from whom it had always bought equipment and they were effectively frozen out. Their request to me was how could they get their produce into the health system as there was a pressing need for it?

I suppose NHS procurers have been inundated with offers of help from potential providers of tests or ventilators or protective equipment who have been trying, in effect, to sell their services to a single customer. Perhaps our NHS system is overwhelmed and cannot cope. By the way I did try to get the 4 potential suppliers alongside the NHS procurement department but I have heard nothing back (but don’t really expect to either).

It has made me think though. We are all in total admiration of what the staff in the NHS are doing – especially the risks they are running. But is the NHS as an organisation, not its magnificent personnel, as good as it can be? Is it institutionally fit for purpose? After all, when this is over perhaps, perhaps we should look again at our National Treasure. We often think the NHS to be beyond compare but is it really?

Looking around Europe at other health systems Germany stands out clearly. The figures are indicative. As of today, Germany has lost 4,586 people killed by Coronavirus whereas more than three and a half times that number of citizens (16,060) have died in the UK. Have we got something wrong?

Nobody doubts that the NHS is filled with dedicated and very brave people and parts of it are superb but have they been let down by its structure and governance? Germany seems to have been much more successful at managing the COVID-19 crisis than any other major European country and yet it doesn’t actually have a national health service in any way like ours.

Each of its sixteen federal states has individual responsibility for its own health service which is paid for by compulsory health insurance levied on those who work. It is a very complicated system which involves payments from individuals, companies and government subsidies but it works.

Anyone who wishes it can go to any specialist doctor they like and there is no need for a middle man/woman (a GP) before so doing. There don’t seem to be waiting lists or delays for rehabilitation. Wow, that seems great. Obviously, the German health system needs over-capacity but in a crisis what an advantage. I understand that at the start of this COVID-19 Crisis Germany had 34 intensive care beds for every 100,000 of its population. We had 6.6 beds and the European average was 11.5 beds for the same numbers of people.

Germany does not have our unwieldy central diagnostic system. At the start of the crisis it had 176 testing centres, part of localised arrangements. We compared very unfavourably with that. I cannot find the exact numbers now but seem to recall we had less than 50 such laboratories.

I know this may not be accepted by those who love the state running everything but in Germany laboratory efficiency and capacity seems much higher than here at home because of a high degree of de-centralisation, privatisation as well as competition. Their health system is not centrally controlled and all sixteen federal states can make their own choices and decisions. It works too.

But the German health system comes at a cost. According to the Office of National Statistics, in 2017 the health costs per person were £2,989 a year whereas in Germany £4,432 was spent. It is a blinding glimpse of the obvious that spending more gets a better health service. So, would each of us be prepared to pay 33 per cent more on that part of our taxes dedicated to health? Right now, I know we would and I’m pretty certain, even before the crisis, such additional taxes just for the NHS would have received a fair wind too. But it is not just about money – although that seriously helps. As it is set-up at the moment, I wonder whether a cash injection of another third would give us the choice and over-capacity of the German health system?

We often almost by instinct – and with national pride - defend our NHS as being beyond reproach and a model for the World to follow. After all, it has been around long enough for other countries to copy our lead. I wonder why they have not then? In truth though there is no other country with a system anywhere near the NHS in its set-up.

When the COVID-19 Crisis is over so much will never be the same again. That probably includes the NHS as well. I repeat that individuals and parts of the NHS – maybe not its procurement side though - have performed magnificently. We all know that. Please do not think I am not knocking the NHS. It looks after everyone – rich or poor – regardless. That is superb. But I am just suggesting that we might consider, after this crisis is past, how the NHS can be adapted to be even better in the future.
One of the underlying reasons why Germany and South Korea have done spectacularly well compared with most other nations is all down to the level of their preparedness. And it all stems from the risk of a future potential biological weapons attack. For years South Korea has practised and practised their response to a biological weapons attack from North Korea, which has been a very real risk. Consequently they have well developed capability and capacity to test and quite a sophisticated 'track and trace' system to better manage the spread of any desiese amongst their population. Similarly Germany is also better prepared having benefited from the legacy of the cold war and the threat of a biological attack from the then Soviet Union. So there are also some historical reasons behind why they are better prepared than perhaps we are.
 
Last edited:

GeoffCapes

Member
Messages
14,000
The procurement departments ARE part of the NHS.
You cannot be happy with the current situation we find ourselves in surely?
And, yes, I do want much. I want a system that give us the best results of all the European contries, not the WORST. The way we are currently headed, we will be just that.

Having done a bit of work for the NHS, I can tell you, that if you want to do a lot (i.e. all trusts) you have to be on an NHS procurement framework.

Guess what. There's a cost to get on that framework. And that framework is managed by an external third party.
So the bigger you are, the more you have to pay.
I would imagine a low cost high volume bit of kit like PPE the margin the PPE providers have, is swallowed up by the third party framework providers costs.
Therefore it becomes unprofitable to be an NHS provider via a framework. And therefore you can't supply the NHS.
As you're not on a procurement framework.......

It's a never ending cycle.
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Having done a bit of work for the NHS, I can tell you, that if you want to do a lot (i.e. all trusts) you have to be on an NHS procurement framework.

Guess what. There's a cost to get on that framework. And that framework is managed by an external third party.
So the bigger you are, the more you have to pay.
I would imagine a low cost high volume bit of kit like PPE the margin the PPE providers have, is swallowed up by the third party framework providers costs.
Therefore it becomes unprofitable to be an NHS provider via a framework. And therefore you can't supply the NHS.
As you're not on a procurement framework.......

It's a never ending cycle.
I worked on NHS Spine, SpineDirectory Services (LDAP), and Endpoint registration amongst other things. The Caldicott Guardian too.
 

Wack61

Member
Messages
8,782
It's a never ending cycle.

I spoke to a friend today, his wife is a classroom assistant , they need 5 members of staff in to open the school for keyworkers children , there's only 2 kids in the school

It's surprising how they decide who is a keyworker because this parents keyworker job is foster parent to the kid they don't want to look after during school hours.
 

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,102
I spoke to a friend today, his wife is a classroom assistant , they need 5 members of staff in to open the school for keyworkers children , there's only 2 kids in the school

It's surprising how they decide who is a keyworker because this parents keyworker job is foster parent to the kid they don't want to look after during school hours.

It’s not just key workers they’re also open for children on social services radar.
 
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