Brexit Deal

Wattie

Member
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8,640
Im a remainer...but I have some sympathy for the view of crashing out. Because May's so-called deal is an emasculation of the UK's position, materially and politically...
Crashing out is fecking stupid but May's deal is a disaster. I cant see any way forward under any proposed Plan B that isnt actually even worse than May's hatchet job...
Remaining would be nice...But would it. An emboldened EU will entrench further the systemic issues I feel they have. Not all the arguments for leaving were about leaving, in hindsight, but about those things that are seriously wrong with the EU. A referendum to leave the E.U. wasnt the way to have that debate...Accepting a deal ( or never ending stale-mate) would start a doubling down by EU powers, which is populist in essence..And I suspect we will ever be the "bad boy" of Europe despite the shorter term benfits the EU gain, and find ourselves less and less "relevant" in our participation ( aka - materially and politically weakened)
Of course, Id love to be wrong about that...but it all leads me to say, crashing out, whilst rash and wrecklessly stupid, it is the only way to stand up for ourselves after we have been landed in this buggers muddle...
Im not sure i can get behind another binary vote , despite the, I hope, obvious elucidation of some of the most potent and awkward problems that Leaving entails.....Its too simple. We're too divided. We are over a barrel in terms of the sands running out...!

I believe the UK has sh1t the bed...Crashing out is the only way to hold the EU to account for both our sins, and our power ?

This is good.TimR
We may be divided in opinion but we want the best for the Uk.

Crashing out- this is due to the ineptitude of thegovt and the negotiating position we are now in (hijack?) see my comments re 2 years ago.
We should have used no deal as our bargaining tool....the Eu would have flinched as time ticked down as most of Europe is in turmoil and unhappy.

Remaining under Mays deal is f*******:stupid as neither remainers or leavers would want that. May reminds me of all the appalling salesmen I’ve witnesed in the past. You have all seen them too.

May is now getting desperate.
Firstly. It was a “ no deal is better than a bad deal”...she couldn’t sell that.... And no ******* wonder. She looks like she needs a Zimmer frame.....hardly imposing
Were u terrified?

Secondly it became “my deal or no deal,......they must have taken away the Zimmer frame

as she immediately caved in to Europe’s deal, developed Altsheimers and forgot that a no deal is better than a “give Europe 37 billion deal and our sovereignty indefinitely “;and let’s pretend we’ve left.

No deal -yes please......especially after the legal advice you were trying to hide.

Thirdly shes’ now saying it is Europe or labour.

What? I thought they used to hang traitors.
Now we’re being forced to decide between foreign ownership (that we'd voted to leave) or Uk ownership (that fails to meet Tory standards)

Game over
 

Wattie

Member
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8,640
Out of interest, suppose we approve May’s deal, seek to negotiate the final terms of the ongoing trade deal over the next 12 months or so, and then find that the EU behaves unreasonably. What’s to stop us unilaterally then leaving without a deal on a timescale of our choosing, eg give three months notice to give businesses a fighting chance to get ready? My understanding is that the deal provides for this if we consider that the EU stops negotiating in good faith. I know that “good faith” is open to interpretation, but who would interpret this in such circumstances. Not the ECJ surely, because they would clearly be biased and could not be allowed to decide such a matter. Is there a global legal institution that could be the final arbiter on this. Perhaps this is identified in the deal?
We can’t legally do that.
Full stop
 

TimR

Member
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2,656
See now, Ive got a problem with the "we cant legally do that"..!
Not just that, but the legal advice you refer to that was given to the govt..If members opposite need clarification, they are free to seek their own ! Im not convinced they were right to compel the release of the advice..but what do I know ?
The fact she then was forced to cave in is perhaps an insight into the machinations behind the scenes...If you believe she did actually capitulate ?

Before that though, I have issue with the "we"..."We" cant legally... & what if "we"accept May's deal ? I have to wonder who the "we" is ? All the indications are that the MPs will not approve her deal...

Which leaves a second referendum..? Do we think she is so used by now to giving in that we get one..?
Then sadly, I am back to having to board in a soiled stable( aka- Oh forget it EU...we're good ! blush blush !!) And that isnt because May made a series of errors that started with failing to identify a strategy, and so far ended up by over reaching and satisfying no one...

Im sorry but dullards like me, I'm going to need a little more than "Full stop" ! ;)
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
A second referendum would be a remain win, this time they'll bother to vote.

May's deal won't be accepted.

Norway/Swiss model - that's would do for me, my desire to remain is based mostly on the four freedoms.

That leaves economic suicide with no-deal scenario, or

A GE which Labour will will win, and whilst I am a JC fan, I'm no 100% sure he's anymore committed to Brexit/Bremain than May seems to be.

My own personal view is I'm trying to look at the whole Brexit/GE thing from a social/people POV, let's face it none of us are economists but I do think there is a paradigm shift now towards looking after vulnerable people, rights etc over squeezing an extra percentage out of the working class. That's gone on too far, as we can plainly see with the sheer number of people sleeping in doorways, families under the poverty level of the number food banks.......
 

TimR

Member
Messages
2,656
The problem for me is that JC is so totally against Europe. I am repelled from anything he might seem to offer in the direction of traditionally socialist ideals based on his total lack of political aptitude. ( the UN Envoy for Poverty released a damning report, condemning the encumbent govt ) Making political capital out of a National crisis, which is how I see the Labour leaders current ploy, & our plight, is as clumsy as it is self serving.
He starts to look like he cant do it for the UK's interests then...
That, & I dont think he could find his way out a paper bag with both hands and a map...! ;)
 
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Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
The problem for me is that JC is so totally against Europe. I am repelled from anything he might seem to offer in the direction of traditionally socialist ideals based on his total lack of political aptitude. ( the UN Envoy for Poverty released a damning report, condemning the encumbent govt ) Making political capital out of a National crisis, which is how I see the Labour leaders current ploy, & our plight, is as clumsy as it is self serving.
He starts to look like he cant do it for the UK's interests then...
That, & I dont think he could find his way out a paper bag with both hands and a map...! ;)

Kind of hope he could be a new Hugh Gaitskell, shame he died so young, might have improved life for the lot of us in UK.

Thinking about it, it's hard to think of any Tories gov that's improved things, sure all Govs have improved things/made things worse, but usually these things are a result of the successes or fails for previous governments.

But Nye Bevin, Kier Hardie, maybe Hugh Gaitskell and Tony Benn, have all done something positive for the lot of the ordinary people in the UK, I'm struggling to think of any Tories that have done that, maybe some Liberals, will have to research...

From uni studies ISTR Benn was no fan of Gaitskell, nothing is linear in politics...

It's a sad state of affairs (like being Scottish!) - Trainspotting.......
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Kind of hope he could be a new Hugh Gaitskell, shame he died so young, might have improved life for the lot of us in UK.

Thinking about it, it's hard to think of any Tories gov that's improved things, sure all Govs have improved things/made things worse, but usually these things are a result of the successes or fails for previous governments.

But Nye Bevin, Kier Hardie, maybe Hugh Gaitskell and Tony Benn, have all done something positive for the lot of the ordinary people in the UK, I'm struggling to think of any Tories that have done that, maybe some Liberals, will have to research...

From uni studies ISTR Benn was no fan of Gaitskell, nothing is linear in politics...

It's a sad state of affairs (like being Scottish!) - Trainspotting.......

John Smith was another, I really believed in him. Scarily I see a lot of JC in Kinnock, who Smith replaced, which is not good.

I really can't think of any Tory I warmed to, sorry Thatcher was the worst, Major was ok, Heath, well there's a lot to come out there, we all know what it is. William Hague I would personally smack in the face......
 

Rwc13

Member
Messages
1,668
Hmmm, really?

That might be right if you take the view that free hand outs really help people longer term, and that pumping billions into public services without any control on how it is used delivers value for money. What about economic growth, business growth, sustainable employment growth, wealth creation and the positive impact that all has on families incomes and quality of life.

Any party that holds to the lie that increasing higher rate income taxes increases the Government’s tax take when that has absolutely been proved wrong will struggle to get me vote. Corbin is a throwback to politics that have been proved not to work for decades.

And I’d hold Corbin more at fault than anyone for the Brexit mess we find ourselves in. He’s doesn’t care where we end up on Brexit, just about trying to force an election to get him and his party into Government.
 

Wanderer

Member
Messages
5,791
Hmmm, really?

That might be right if you take the view that free hand outs really help people longer term, and that pumping billions into public services without any control on how it is used delivers value for money. What about economic growth, business growth, sustainable employment growth, wealth creation and the positive impact that all has on families incomes and quality of life.

Any party that holds to the lie that increasing higher rate income taxes increases the Government’s tax take when that has absolutely been proved wrong will struggle to get me vote. Corbin is a throwback to politics that have been proved not to work for decades.

And I’d hold Corbin more at fault than anyone for the Brexit mess we find ourselves in. He’s doesn’t care where we end up on Brexit, just about trying to force an election to get him and his party into Government.
Not handouts, help.

I know for a fact so many people are beyond help I'm from the shiity end of Bolton, druggies, alkies etc, some right scumbags and I've employed people who don't fckin turn up cos they were out of it or hungover and begged for a second chance and yes, everyone deserves a chance, maybe two or three, but no more. And we should help those people that can see beyond the hole the are in.

Not an easy balance, but food for though.

I lived in Denmark, a high tax country, having said that my tax was around 30% net on gross, no homeless people, no massive aircraft carriers, no food banks, free health care, no mention of poverty levels, great pension, unemployment benefit 80% of earnings, negative interest rates, healthy cycling population, the only difference I could see between UK and DK is they don't have delusions of grandeur, UK is just another county now.

There's a lot to be said about a country that generally thinks people first, economy second. Unfortunately we seem to think we are World Leaders Pretend and need a Navy, need missiles, this is my mistake, let me make it good, I raised the wall, let me be the one to knock it down.....

 

BuckRog64

Member
Messages
334
Hmmm, really?

That might be right if you take the view that free hand outs really help people longer term, and that pumping billions into public services without any control on how it is used delivers value for money. What about economic growth, business growth, sustainable employment growth, wealth creation and the positive impact that all has on families incomes and quality of life.

Any party that holds to the lie that increasing higher rate income taxes increases the Government’s tax take when that has absolutely been proved wrong will struggle to get me vote. Corbin is a throwback to politics that have been proved not to work for decades.

And I’d hold Corbin more at fault than anyone for the Brexit mess we find ourselves in. He’s doesn’t care where we end up on Brexit, just about trying to force an election to get him and his party into Government.
Well said that man.

I wouldn't dispute that public services are underfunded. That's because we are trying to get ourselves out of a deep recession and stand on our own two feet. But decent management would drive massive efficiencies and budget savings. I've been in hospitals and watched the horrendous waste such as a ward with one nurse working and several other staff just wandering around achieving nothing. I've had business dealings with many councils and the ridiculous bureaucracy where ten different departments have to sign off basic material and they all contradict each other and then change their minds again on second drafts. Nothing gets done on time or to budget and I fear a labour government that wants to re nationalise other services.

It's simply ridiculous and embarrassing to see a PM trying to impose a deal nobody in government wants for all the reasons already stated. The public were not properly informed of pros/cons when asked to vote at the referendum and ever since we have seen politicians posturing for self gain rather than the interests of the country. Brexit was quite simple; a Norway type deal or a Canada type deal. There was never going to be any other options.
 

Wanderer

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Messages
5,791
I suppose because now I'm of an age and been reasonably successful but from the bottom of the pile, I've seen the lot, I've seen mates dead due to drugs, alcohol, war, even, mates persecuted for being foreign, Irish (as I am - half) gay, bi, the lot and I feel this is the real problem because for a long time real working people have been viewed as profit fodder...

Depends whether you view people as pieces of profit meat or real human beings, due to my heart and pancreas probs recently I've not been able to help much but if anyone can see a child crying with hunger I'm sure you'd see things differently.

Easy to say it's the mothers fault but it's a child, it's not it's fault.

Should have said we (me and Mr's Wanderer) spent recent Christmases collecting and providing meals for those below the poverty line, and rather scarily that started 2013, not that recent.....

Things have to change and I just remembered when collecting and asking people to give some food for people struggling to feed their kids over Christmas we had a lot of people accusing us of 'making them feel guilty'. Fuuuck meee.....
 

Oneball

Member
Messages
11,075
We don’t underfund public services because of trying to balance the books in a recession or because of aircraft carriers or trying to be a World leader, I believe all those are important things.

We underfund because we pay very little tax. Norway, Denmark and France have some of the highest social welfare spending in the world, they also tax at 50% or more of GDP, we tax at 34% of GDP.

We’ve not liked paying taxes for hundreds of years. Like Blackadder said to Prince George, “it lost your father the colonies.” No government would get into power if it said it was going to increase your tax burden by 50%.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
Interesting...cos as I see it...Cameron should have asked

" do you want your cake and eat it?"
OR

"do you want an impractical, expensive amputation of a limb, anY limb in excahange for my hubris?"
Last I looked...he was the most recently voted for head of govt in the UK..

Id agree you cant turn back time..its not about blame ( actually, I dont believe that but I sense we havent time at this juncture...)
We need to get it done ( whatever that means)

Have you that little faith in a Uk, over a troubled and bankrupt Europe.
Hmmm, really?

That might be right if you take the view that free hand outs really help people longer term, and that pumping billions into public services without any control on how it is used delivers value for money. What about economic growth, business growth, sustainable employment growth, wealth creation and the positive impact that all has on families incomes and quality of life.

Any party that holds to the lie that increasing higher rate income taxes increases the Government’s tax take when that has absolutely been proved wrong will struggle to get me vote. Corbin is a throwback to politics that have been proved not to work for decades.

And I’d hold Corbin more at fault than anyone for the Brexit mess we find ourselves in. He’s doesn’t care where we end up on Brexit, just about trying to force an election to get him and his party into Government.

I'm not sure I agree with the statement that others are just trying to force an election.

Competent negotiating and planning by the current incumbants wouldnt have led to this.

But due to
total incompetence
and clearly a failure to prepare for plan B
and a prime minister now trying to effectively threaten (its europe or jc) and force through a deal just about everyone hates (which isnt Brexit)
and a ticking clock

The UK finds itself in a perilous position which they are totally responsible for.......they even set the referendum question which is now seen to be too narrow in its asking.

Someone strong is now needed at the helm and it clearly isnt the current leadership who have totally mismanaged everything for 2 years and got us to this dire position.

Can you blame others for saying enough is enough.........
 

allandwf

Member
Messages
10,958
The way I see this shambles now is a bit like a disintegrating marriage. You can't go back as things will never be the same, and will always be cast up. Forward will be unknown. What everyone can see now, possibly thanks to media, is that politicians no matter what party are basically on in it for themselves. Talk of a "peoples vote" is also a nonsense as that is exactly what we did have, unfortunately the result was not what establishment wanted or expected. The other talk of having another referendum as "people will vote this time", well they could have voted last time! I'm a firm believer in if you don't'vote, then you have no right to complain.
Now I would like to leave with no deal, start afresh, see exactly who needs who. Maybe it will cost us a lot, maybe it will take a generation to build the country back up, and? It's been done before, only this time the whole country will be a lot more aware.
 
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JonW

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3,259
I find it really bizarre, and actually quite offensive, that the current shambles is being blamed entirely on Theresa May...

I’m nowhere near her biggest fan, but where the **** are

David Cameron
Nigel Farage
Alan Johnson
Boris Johnson
Ed Miliband
Gordon Brown
Michael Gove
Jeremy Corbyn

What’s really interesting about this list is that more of them were Leavers, but didn’t have a clue about how to achieve it, and didn’t have the balls to stick around and try to work it out... bloody cowards the lot of them.
 

zagatoes30

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Messages
20,759
What’s really interesting about this list is that more of them were Leavers, but didn’t have a clue about how to achieve it, and didn’t have the balls to stick around and try to work it out... bloody cowards the lot of them.

This is what annoys me most about this whole fiasco, those MPs that wanted to leave lied from the start and now bicker from the outside with no decent answers and when asked to step up they just resign. If you have a view be prepared to stand up and fight for it.
 

Nibby

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Messages
2,027
This is what annoys me most about this whole fiasco, those MPs that wanted to leave lied from the start and now bicker from the outside with no decent answers and when asked to step up they just resign. If you have a view be prepared to stand up and fight for it.
Remainers ain't helped either though, going on about another vote, keep demonstrating against the result which must only strengthen the EU's bargaining position when they see a disunited UK.
Has Corbyn said where he stands on it all? All he seems to do is stick the boot in on Mrs May without saying what what he would do. I do believe he wanted to Leave but if he owned up to that and nailed his colours to the mast I dare say his millions of young disciples would drop him like a hot potato.
No one comes out of this smelling like roses imho that includes Leave, Remain and the EU.
 
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zagatoes30

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20,759
Once the decision was made it was always going to be a tough exit, here in the UK there are too many remainers who still wanted to stay and the leavers didn't want to stand up to deliver the benefits that they promised so we ended up with a compromise that works for neither. However don't forget the EU were in this too and the one thing they didn't seen was an easy exit for any country. The EU is a flawed organisation that is expensive to run, what is doesn't need is an easy route out for any net contributor so they had to show that leaving was a significant disadvantage in leaving and this is what they have done helped mainly by the UK split weakening our negotiating position.

The only positive out of this is it has shown up all the current crop of MPs as ineffective leaders and decision makers and some have even shown there self centred true selfs which I hope we as voters remember for future votes.
 

Phil H

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4,107
Hot off the press:

'The European Court of Justice has ruled the UK can cancel Brexit without the permission of the other 27 EU members.'

The Brussels cabal is clearly getting worried - as they should; their dream is rapidly becoming a nightmare.

PH