Biturbos/number cars/Ghibli IIs for sale

Nayf

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2,734
For some reason - it’s not the real deal (for me atleast). Should be a 2.0. Even if you change visual aspects as headlights and getting a single exhaust. Could still be a perfect Ghib though.
@gemini owns a 2.8 and he posted up the torque figures. The key thing about the Cup experience (for me, anyway), is the speed at which the turbos spool up with the special roller bearings, and the steering feel/chassis tweaks. Now, obviously I love the 2.0 Cup for its up-an-at-em engine character (and similar driving style), but when Gemini posted up his torque figures I can imagine a different but no less exciting car to drive.
The engine tweaks – as far as I understand it, though @dickyb may correct me – yielded the same percentage increase in horsepower. I don't have the 2.8 figures to hand, but if we extrapolate from standard 2.0 = 306bhp, official Cup figures = 330bhp, unofficial owners/factory workers = 340/360bhp, and apply it to the 2.8's lower peak horsepower, from what I remember it's a similar percentage of extra horsepower, if you follow me.
The thing is, the 2.8 delivered significantly more torque (over 300lb ft IIRC) at much lower in the rev range, which would make for an exciting package in a different way to a 2.0-litre car. Now, I've spoken to people who've driven both 2.8 and 2.0 Cups and they say they aren't that different, but I'd love to find out. By owning both, obviously...
 

Maser73

Junior Member
Messages
53
Don’t want to downplay the 2.8 Cup. Maybe even better. Don’t know but in general a Cup (or better a Ghibli) should be 2.0 manual. Period (in my own little world). I currently have a 2.0 MY94 with kit sportivo set and a 2.0 Cup. Owned before a 2.8GT manual and prefer the 2.0 in general. More ‘bity’ engine wise (not sure if right expression in English). The difference between a standard 2.0 and Cup engine all a bit relative. A very well maintained standard 2.0 can be better than a not so well treated Cup engine. Handling of Cup surely better. More one with steering. The KS stabi on the otherhand makes a difference on the standard car. Now planning to put the KS stabi on the Cup as not really understood why this wasn’t standard. Maybe will find out once tested.
 

gemini

Member
Messages
143
@Maser73

I had both, a ghibli GT 2.0 and the 2.8 cup, and I sold the GT. The difference is really night and day.

cup510.jpg


Of course there is the massive torque surge of the 2800cc but I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the final ratio is shorter on the cup (about 6%), it really speeds up everything. Even compared to my shamal (a new addition to the fleet from last year, bought unseen in Japan as a non runner, I should post my restoration thread here, if interested the very long french version : http://www.maseratitude.com/public_html/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9407&start=80#p184579), the ghibli is by far more impressive.

@Nayf, you should come visit me in Belgium one day, we could organise something fun, with the cup, the shamal, the AC and the MCV. I'm not far from Brussel South, easy access abd cheap with ryanair from UK.
 

Nayf

Member
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2,734
Don’t want to downplay the 2.8 Cup. Maybe even better. Don’t know but in general a Cup (or better a Ghibli) should be 2.0 manual. Period (in my own little world). I currently have a 2.0 MY94 with kit sportivo set and a 2.0 Cup. Owned before a 2.8GT manual and prefer the 2.0 in general. More ‘bity’ engine wise (not sure if right expression in English). The difference between a standard 2.0 and Cup engine all a bit relative. A very well maintained standard 2.0 can be better than a not so well treated Cup engine. Handling of Cup surely better. More one with steering. The KS stabi on the otherhand makes a difference on the standard car. Now planning to put the KS stabi on the Cup as not really understood why this wasn’t standard. Maybe will find out once tested.
I know exactly what you mean about bitey - it's why I love the (2.0) Cup so much, you have to be awake, it demands you to actually drive it to get the best out of it, if you follow me.
 

Ewan

Member
Messages
6,757
The 2.0 lt. engine is the one to have, in either 306 or 330 bhp guise. I've had a 2.0 lt. GT, two 2.0 lt. Cups, and a 2.8 GT (though admittedly, the 2.8 was an auto, so perhaps not a totally fair comparison). All good fun though, in their own ways.
 

dickyb

Member
Messages
432
@gemini owns a 2.8 and he posted up the torque figures. The key thing about the Cup experience (for me, anyway), is the speed at which the turbos spool up with the special roller bearings, and the steering feel/chassis tweaks. Now, obviously I love the 2.0 Cup for its up-an-at-em engine character (and similar driving style), but when Gemini posted up his torque figures I can imagine a different but no less exciting car to drive.
The engine tweaks – as far as I understand it, though @dickyb may correct me – yielded the same percentage increase in horsepower. I don't have the 2.8 figures to hand, but if we extrapolate from standard 2.0 = 306bhp, official Cup figures = 330bhp, unofficial owners/factory workers = 340/360bhp, and apply it to the 2.8's lower peak horsepower, from what I remember it's a similar percentage of extra horsepower, if you follow me.
The thing is, the 2.8 delivered significantly more torque (over 300lb ft IIRC) at much lower in the rev range, which would make for an exciting package in a different way to a 2.0-litre car. Now, I've spoken to people who've driven both 2.8 and 2.0 Cups and they say they aren't that different, but I'd love to find out. By owning both, obviously...

There isn't that much information available on the Japanese spec 2.8 Cup but unlike the 2 UK 2.8 Hybrid Cups as they were known, the Japanese 2.8 Cups were specially tuned by the Japanese importer Cornes, it is thought that 27 of these were built. The UK cars were merely 2.8 GTs with Cup suspension and cosmetic details such as the Cup wheels, carbon interior trim, Momo steering wheel etc. One of these was unfortunately written off in an accident in around 2008. As Gemini says, the Japanese cars also featured the lower ratio diff unlike the UK Hybrid Cups; it is thought that the Japanese 2.8 Cups produced around 305bhp with the ECU tweaks carried out by Cornes, but they did not feature the roller bearing turbos of the 2 litre Cup, although torque is significantly higher and accessible lower down in the rev range when compared to the European Cup version. I certainly wouldn't consider a Japanese Cup to be in any way inferior to the European version, they are just different in the same way that the 2 litre GT and the 2.8 GT are different, each has their merits.
 

Ewan

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6,757

Nayf

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That’s a nice looking example, with low mileage given its age.
My first ever Maser was very similar - a 2.0 lt LHD Ghibli in black, imported from Italy.
Not a silly price, either.
A good option for someone that travels into Europe regularly and needs LHD.
I’d want a later one myself (rear suspension/diff) but they’re twice the price.
Not tempted by the Primatist on Catawiki Ewan?
 

Ewan

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6,757
I’d want a later one myself (rear suspension/diff) but they’re twice the price.
Not tempted by the Primatist on Catawiki Ewan?
No. The Primatist is a standard Ghibli in a pretty colour, yet it costs more than a Cup, apparently. That’s just daft. I’d rather have a late Ghibli GT manual than either of those cars, and at half the price.
 
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388
No. The Primatist is a standard Ghibli in a pretty colour, yet it costs more than a Cup, apparently. That’s just daft. I’d rather have a late Ghibli GT manual than either of those cars, and at half the price.
I concur on the Primatist. Although, my dream Ghibli would be a 2.8 Cup from Japan. That would tick all the boxes for me.
 

Nayf

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2,734
I concur on the Primatist. Although, my dream Ghibli would be a 2.8 Cup from Japan. That would tick all the boxes for me.
There was one for sale - may still be - £35/40k before import. Decided against it as most of the driving would be in the UK and LHD would be an issue…
 
Messages
388
There was one for sale - may still be - £35/40k before import. Decided against it as most of the driving would be in the UK and LHD would be an issue…
With import tax plus VAT it won't be cheap. Although, you could prove it's rare/collectable to reclaim a chunk of money, I did it with my Jag from Japan but took a year! And you have to pay out first. The LHD thing I've never found an issue, been driving my left-hooker for 8 years on UK roads and never a problem :)
 

Ewan

Member
Messages
6,757
I concur on the Primatist. Although, my dream Ghibli would be a 2.8 Cup from Japan. That would tick all the boxes for me.
Out of interest, is there a difference between a 2.8 Cup from Japan and either of the two RHD 2.8 UK Cups?
I believe the silver one was written off, but does the blue (ex. Harry Metcalfe) one still exist?

An extra thought, how about taking a standard RHD UK 2.8 manual from about 1996 (i.e. the Cup era) and then fitting the Cup bits? Myles at Emblem might quite enjoy doing that.
 

gemini

Member
Messages
143
Out of interest, is there a difference between a 2.8 Cup from Japan and either of the two RHD 2.8 UK Cups?
I believe the silver one was written off, but does the blue (ex. Harry Metcalfe) one still exist?

An extra thought, how about taking a standard RHD UK 2.8 manual from about 1996 (i.e. the Cup era) and then fitting the Cup bits? Myles at Emblem might quite enjoy doing that.
The japanese cup came with a slightly modified eprom, increasing the boost (not so much, 305ps @6100 rpm, torque is 43.5kgm/3650rpm). The final gear ratio was lowered by 6%. I have no idea if the same modifications were done for the 2 (or 3?) RHD 2.8 cups.

About that, I've read that the RHD 2.8 were in fact 2.8 GT modified in UK by Meridien Modena who was the UK importer at that time (dismantling the wood trim and putting the false carbon, replacing the wheels...), but I have no certitude about that, maybe someone from Meridien could confirm. It makes sense to me (as the only reason there was a couple of 2.8 RHD cup is because maserati denied to import the ghibli cup in UK).
The japanese cups were made like that at the factory.
 

Nayf

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2,734
Cup-Ing a RHD GT is an option (a stronger one given some recent developments… or lack thereof).
The thing is, given the scarcity of manual RHD GTs messing with one seems a bit wrong somehow (even if the changes could be put back). And if you were looking to make the ultimate Ghibli restomod, the highly developed suspension system from AS Motorsport would probably be cheaper and better. But then it still wouldn’t be a 2.0 Cup, which is the dream…
 

Nayf

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2,734
With import tax plus VAT it won't be cheap. Although, you could prove it's rare/collectable to reclaim a chunk of money, I did it with my Jag from Japan but took a year! And you have to pay out first. The LHD thing I've never found an issue, been driving my left-hooker for 8 years on UK roads and never a problem :)
I’m not against LHD per se in the UK but if I can avoid it I’d prefer to. Not really the usual ‘overtaking/barriers’ issue people seem to have, more the forever in potholes and drainage grates.
As much as I love the SZ, for example, driving them in the UK, and driving them in the manner they were made for, can be challenging. I think on one trip through the Cotswolds in one I knew all the drainage cover maker’s serial numbers by heart. Or, more accurately, coccyx.