Brexit Deal

midlifecrisis

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16,102
I didn’t mention the 2-3 weeks vacation in the winter too;)

Anyway, what’s wrong with the Swedish summer? We haven’t seen any rain for 2-3 weeks. Light all night. Lots of food and beer.
Exactly the reason to stay in Sweden in summer! I was in Oslo in summer for a couple of weeks and the Norwegians ladies looked great!
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
Why did not a single remainer howl with protest when May stood up and said no deal was better than a bad deal.
Not one, not even her Mp’s who all applauded it.

Her “negotiation” strategy was diabolical- you’ve only got to watch the documentAry links I posted umpteen posts back to see this- after the first meeting they knew we weren’t going anywhere!

Oh and listen to what those negotiating on the Eu side said re the negotiating- it was a shambles?

This current position should have been our position from day 1.
You cannot exclude a “no deal” scenario (as even May said) from a negotiation process where the other side doesn’t want you to leave.

May was the one that failed to prepare the country credibly for such and start to prepare for it.
Just words no belief

Re the Brexit party, best it possibly calls it a day. It’s splitting the leave vote that would otherwise go Tory.....as happened last week.
 

MaserCoupe

Member
Messages
564
Why did not a single remainer howl with protest when May stood up and said no deal was better than a bad deal.
Not one, not even her Mp’s who all applauded it.

Her “negotiation” strategy was diabolical- you’ve only got to watch the documentAry links I posted umpteen posts back to see this- after the first meeting they knew we weren’t going anywhere!

Oh and listen to what those negotiating on the Eu side said re the negotiating- it was a shambles?

This current position should have been our position from day 1.
You cannot exclude a “no deal” scenario (as even May said) from a negotiation process where the other side doesn’t want you to leave.

May was the one that failed to prepare the country credibly for such and start to prepare for it.
Just words no belief

Re the Brexit party, best it possibly calls it a day. It’s splitting the leave vote that would otherwise go Tory.....as happened last week.
Wattie you never cease to amaze & surprise me with your comments. I mean it’s genius!

Surely you’re not now doubting that we are crashing out on the 31st/10?

Are you now actually telling us that there are different types of leave voters who voted for different types of leave and your hero Farage (“put Nigel in Charge he’ll sort it”) should now disappear because he’s screwing things up for Boris (who you’ve already told us you’re not a fan of) and the Tories??

What, you actually mean the Brexit Party is too Brexity??? So are you saying every Brexiteer who voted to leave knew all along and from day 1 at the beginning that No Deal is what they really really wanted and voted for all along!!? Or is that a face saving tactic/ ploy?

I mean at least you’re not blaming the EU or remainer voters for our current situation here...I’ll Give you that much, or is that yet to come? :D:lol:...
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
Wattie you never cease to amaze & surprise me with your comments. I mean it’s genius!

Surely you’re not now doubting that we are crashing out on the 31st/10?

Are you now actually telling us that there are different types of leave voters who voted for different types of leave and your hero Farage (“put Nigel in Charge he’ll sort it”) should now disappear because he’s screwing things up for Boris (who you’ve already told us you’re not a fan of) and the Tories??

What, you actually mean the Brexit Party is too Brexity??? So are you saying every Brexiteer who voted to leave knew all along and from day 1 at the beginning that No Deal is what they really really wanted and voted for all along!!? Or is that a face saving tactic/ ploy?

I mean at least you’re not blaming the EU or remainer voters for our current situation here...I’ll Give you that much, or is that yet to come? :D:lol:...

Your ability to try to twist something is impressive.

Last week the Brexit party took votes off the Tories, leading to a LIb win....and a reduced Tory majority in the House.
The Tories are the ones in power and currently have the duty to deliver Brexit.

Remainers, unable to accept a democratic result are trying everything to overturn and thwart it.

Hence,
“People's Vote campaign urges Remainers to vote tactically across 100 marginal seats in snap election
Remain voters are being told to ‘hold their noses’ and vote tactically across 100 marginal seats if a snap general election is called. The People’s Vote campaign - the driving force behind bidding for a second EU referendum - has crafted a list of 100 target seats where Remainers will be urged to set aside their traditional party loyalties to help install MPs vying for a second vote. The efforts which apply across England, Scotland and Wales aims to boost the number of pro-People’s Vote MPs in”

Read in PoliticsHome: https://apple.news/AeQDTNiajT7W7QwSDSlR_fg

So I’m holding my nose and suggesting the above in retaliation, not that the Brexit party is too Brexity at all. It will ensure more votes go to the only other leave party- the Tories. I’m still no Johnson fan.

The other option of course is a Tory/Brexit party alliance in such a scenario...which I’d be quite happy about.

So, now i’ve untwisted your twist, you’ll understand why.
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,951
Remainers, unable to accept a democratic result are trying everything to overturn and thwart it.

Whilst this is the case there is a bigger problem, that has become obvious the longer this thing has gone on, which is that Brexit means different things to different people. In fact it has meant different things to the chief architects of Brexit over the past four years. This is more of the nub of the problem than anything.

The actual number of Remainers in Parliament is small, certainly smaller than the number of hard Brexit ERG supporters.

The reason that we aren't out is as much the fault of the various leave factions as it is that of Remainers. If our former MP had attempted to find consensus following her disastrous Election result, instead of trying to push through what she needed to keep her party from splitting, then we would be out by now. Labour have consistently supported Brexit, albeit a softer one than May proposed, and enough would have voted in favour of leaving. I suspect that a confirmatory vote on May's deal would probably have passed and we would have been out as well.

What I find is interesting is that most of the things that were labelled as "Project Fear" are now being prepared for as part of leaving without a deal on October 31st.
 

MaserCoupe

Member
Messages
564
Your ability to try to twist something is impressive.

Last week the Brexit party took votes off the Tories, leading to a LIb win....and a reduced Tory majority in the House.
The Tories are the ones in power and currently have the duty to deliver Brexit.

Remainers, unable to accept a democratic result are trying everything to overturn and thwart it.

Hence,
“People's Vote campaign urges Remainers to vote tactically across 100 marginal seats in snap election
Remain voters are being told to ‘hold their noses’ and vote tactically across 100 marginal seats if a snap general election is called. The People’s Vote campaign - the driving force behind bidding for a second EU referendum - has crafted a list of 100 target seats where Remainers will be urged to set aside their traditional party loyalties to help install MPs vying for a second vote. The efforts which apply across England, Scotland and Wales aims to boost the number of pro-People’s Vote MPs in”

Read in PoliticsHome: https://apple.news/AeQDTNiajT7W7QwSDSlR_fg

So I’m holding my nose and suggesting the above in retaliation, not that the Brexit party is too Brexity at all. It will ensure more votes go to the only other leave party- the Tories. I’m still no Johnson fan.

The other option of course is a Tory/Brexit party alliance in such a scenario...which I’d be quite happy about.

So, now i’ve untwisted your twist, you’ll understand why.
Oh contraire :DNo twisting Wattie, I’m just going on what you post and what you’ve posted in the past. It is your posts I’m trying to make sense of. Trying to see it from your perspective. ;)
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
Whilst this is the case there is a bigger problem, that has become obvious the longer this thing has gone on, which is that Brexit means different things to different people. In fact it has meant different things to the chief architects of Brexit over the past four years. This is more of the nub of the problem than anything.

The actual number of Remainers in Parliament is small, certainly smaller than the number of hard Brexit ERG supporters.

The reason that we aren't out is as much the fault of the various leave factions as it is that of Remainers. If our former MP had attempted to find consensus following her disastrous Election result, instead of trying to push through what she needed to keep her party from splitting, then we would be out by now. Labour have consistently supported Brexit, albeit a softer one than May proposed, and enough would have voted in favour of leaving. I suspect that a confirmatory vote on May's deal would probably have passed and we would have been out as well.

What I find is interesting is that most of the things that were labelled as "Project Fear" are now being prepared for as part of leaving without a deal on October 31st.

How on earth was Mays deal Brexit? If anything it was Brexin with no say whatsoever! it gave Europe the final say on when we leave, (no unilateral action on behalf of the Uk)
Hence it’s rejection.

Your other inaccuracies- “MP 160 Leave | 486 Remain”

Yet, 498 MPs voted in February 2017 in favour of triggering Article 50, which formally began the UK’s exit process from the EU! The default position on A50 is no deal. So, they, each and every one of them, knew.

The House is trying to overrule the voters wishes to leave and Is trying to walk back on A50.
 
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MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,951
Wow the ability to twist something never


How on earth was Mays deal Brexit? If anything it was Brexin with no say whatsoever! it gave Europe the final say on when we leave, (no unilateral action on behalf of the Uk)
Hence it’s rejection.

Your other inaccuracies- “MP 160 Leave | 486 Remain”

Yet, 498 MPs voted in February 2017 in favour of triggering Article 50, which formally began the UK’s exit process from the EU!

The House has overruled the voters wishes- to leave.

May’s deal was Brexit, it removed us from the EU. It didn’t remove all EU influence or obligations, but we are going to get some of them back with an eventual trade deal anyway, but it removed us from the political entity.

It was too far for Labour, who wanted to remain in a customs union, not far enough for the ERG.

You have proven my point, though I don’t think that was your intention. Thank you.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
May’s deal was Brexit, it removed us from the EU. It didn’t remove all EU influence or obligations, but we are going to get some of them back with an eventual trade deal anyway, but it removed us from the political entity.

It was too far for Labour, who wanted to remain in a customs union, not far enough for the ERG.

You have proven my point, though I don’t think that was your intention. Thank you.

Clearly delusional, I think I’ve pointed this out you about 3 times now.

Trapped, not leaving, trapped unless the Eu let us leave.

“… the legal risk remains unchanged that if through no such demonstrable failure of either party, but simply because of intractable differences, [a negotiating deadlock] does arise, the United Kingdom would have, at least while the fundamental circumstances remained the same, no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement.”

Article 62 cannot be invoked where the circumstance that arises – the indefinite or extended application of the backstop – has been foreseen by the withdrawal agreement. Accordingly, it can offer no assistance. The argument that it could be invoked if negotiations broke down and the backstop pertained indefinitely is hopeless. It is not even arguable. Nor is the idea that the UK could somehow adopt its own interpretation, or laws, to get around the problem. The withdrawal agreement is an international obligation which trumps domestic law.”

He also pointed out that the UK could not act unilaterally since the matter would have to come before the arbitral tribunal established under the Withdrawal Agreement.

And on 17 March, Lord Anderson’s counsel team produced another opinion on this Vienna Convention argument, which concluded that:

There is no scope for an argument that a breakdown in negotiations could amount to a fundamental change of circumstances, not least because this is not only foreseeable but has been foreseen by the UK and is provided for in the Protocol.”

 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,951
Clearly delusional, I think I’ve pointed this out you about 3 times now.

Trapped, not leaving, trapped unless the Eu let us leave.

“… the legal risk remains unchanged that if through no such demonstrable failure of either party, but simply because of intractable differences, [a negotiating deadlock] does arise, the United Kingdom would have, at least while the fundamental circumstances remained the same, no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement.”

Article 62 cannot be invoked where the circumstance that arises – the indefinite or extended application of the backstop – has been foreseen by the withdrawal agreement. Accordingly, it can offer no assistance. The argument that it could be invoked if negotiations broke down and the backstop pertained indefinitely is hopeless. It is not even arguable. Nor is the idea that the UK could somehow adopt its own interpretation, or laws, to get around the problem. The withdrawal agreement is an international obligation which trumps domestic law.”

He also pointed out that the UK could not act unilaterally since the matter would have to come before the arbitral tribunal established under the Withdrawal Agreement.

And on 17 March, Lord Anderson’s counsel team produced another opinion on this Vienna Convention argument, which concluded that:

There is no scope for an argument that a breakdown in negotiations could amount to a fundamental change of circumstances, not least because this is not only foreseeable but has been foreseen by the UK and is provided for in the Protocol.”


Insults. That general means that you’re running away from the argument.

  • Farage 2013 : “Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were like Norway and Switzerland”
  • Johnson 2013 : “I would vote to stay in the single market”
  • Gove 2016 : “The UK would be part of the European free trade zone with access to the European single market but free from EU regulation which costs us billions of pounds per year”

The reason we aren’t out is as much the fault of Brexiteers not being able to agree on Brexit as it is on Remainers not wanting to leave.

Feel free to run away from this central point again though.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
Insults. That general means that you’re running away from the argument.

  • Farage 2013 : “Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were like Norway and Switzerland”
  • Johnson 2013 : “I would vote to stay in the single market”
  • Gove 2016 : “The UK would be part of the European free trade zone with access to the European single market but free from EU regulation which costs us billions of pounds per year”

The reason we aren’t out is as much the fault of Brexiteers not being able to agree on Brexit as it is on Remainers not wanting to leave.

Feel free to run away from this central point again though.
What’s insulting is the fact you keep coming out with rubbish like Mays deal was leaving.
The Legal advice says we can’t leave under Mays deal- without Europe’s agreement.
Fact.
The reason we aren’t out is May ballsed itup- go read the resignation letters.

New all time high in GBP.
49EDA05F-4A0B-44A6-B54D-A7E8FD9AB65F.jpeg
 

MrMickS

Member
Messages
3,951
What’s insulting is the fact you keep coming out with rubbish like Mays deal was leaving.
The Legal advice says we can’t leave under Mays deal- without Europe’s agreement.
Fact.
The reason we aren’t out is May ballsed itup- go read the resignation letters.

New all time high in GBP.
View attachment 58980
Oh yes, because in public resignation letters MPs always put the truth. There’s never any posturing based on how they want to present themselves in the future.

If May’s deal wasn’t leaving how come MPs voting it down were labelled traitors and accused of blocking Brexit? You can’t have it both ways.
 

Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
If May’s deal wasn’t leaving how come MPs voting it down were labelled traitors and accused of blocking Brexit?

.lPeople that voted leave didn’t vote for a deal that doesn’t allow us to leave. Shock horror.
You go figure it, I’m not banging my head on your wall anymore.

“The reality is nobody wants Brexit......”

Really? Geez. So the Eu elections didn’t matter as well as the referendum.

Remainers unable to accept Democratic results.
Tragic but similar to the Eu ethos,
 
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Wattie

Member
Messages
8,640
If bojo wants no deal then why wait to halloween?
Or will it ever happen...


Cue Wattie..
He doesn’t want ‘no deal’ but he’s prepared to walk away without one as the backstop in the withdrawal agreement negotiated by the previous inept PM is unacceptable as confirmed by the legal advice, twice now.
Capiche?