Gransport against Porsche 997

The 997 Gen1 was specified as manual or auto (tiptronic) box car.
A comparison between F1 and tiptronic is not appropriate as one is comparing a hydraulically-actuated dry plate clutch in F1 box versus a fluid (torque converter) clutch in the tiptronic. The torque profile of the Porsche suits the auto box and using buttons in manual mode is really good. It has intelligent software that learns the driver's style, holds the gear into a corner without shifting up as the gas pedal is lifted entering a corner.

In traffic, the Porsche does not raise anxiety levels in crawling stop/start traffic worrying about clutch wear in the F1 box (I cringe every time in such a situation if I hit traffic in the GS despite a new clutch prior to purchase a year ago).

The Porsche PDK box in the Gen2 997 is a dream. Gone is the fluid (torque converter) clutch and its a pre-engaged pre-selector double clutch gearbox. It is ballistic quick in changes (clutch 1 for gears 1,3,5 and clutch 2 for gears 2,4,6). It can drive in full auto mode, manual mode lightning quick changes with no neck-snapping whips and either mode can be in sports mode or non-sports.
It is a wonderful box (I have driven it) and my experience is it takes F1 to the next level of progress with two clutches instead of the single plate clutch in the F1.

As I have both a GS and a 996 Turbo with manual box, my view is they are both superb cars and transmissions in their own way.
The Turbo is ballistic, 2nd gear (to 75mph) and 3rd gear (to 115mph) just demolishes everything and the torque with the forced induction from twin turbos has no lag. I love the manual box and I love the F1 box for their own characteristics. The GS is not a Porsche and the Porsche is not a GS. Hence I have them side-by-side as stable-mates.

They have BOTH proven to be very reliable and depreciation is unheard of with my examples. Servicing and maintenance on the Turbo is reasonable, but not in Mondeo territory. It needs an owner to stay on top of everything. Ignoring or delaying highlighted work at servicing bites very hard downstream. So it needs a slush fund of £2k set aside each year in addition to routine servicing for anything that the service inspection highlights needs doing. My example was £102k new and so it requires this sort of contingency fund to keep it tip-top.

I have no experience of DSG so no comment. I just wanted to put into context the points about the Porsche v GS raised and the gearbox remarks as I own both today.

My daily has the DSG box.
It's just boringly good, tied to a turbo diesel, you tend to just plant your foot down and end up driving too fast!
Discovered what the 'coast' function did yesterday in the options, it puts the gearbox into neutral when you take your foot off the throttle, so it really does coast with no engine braking!

Maybe the 997 did make more sense as a new car and a daily driver. But as a second hand buy, the horrific reliability of the Porsche engine (what kind of car has multiple, commonly occurring problems that require a rebuild?!) put me off. The F1 gearbox might be clunky around town, but it's great on a spirited drive, which is what I use it for - it's a 10 year old modern classic for weekends and special days.

philw696 said:

Wow thats Ferrari running costs.
One thing for sure driving fast on track the Cambio Corsa is excellent.
When I tracked my BMW E36 M3 3.0 the gearbox which was fine on the road was hard work on track.

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Or half a ghibli! (all depreciation - minimal running costs)

m1980k said:

Maybe the 997 did make more sense as a new car and a daily driver. But as a second hand buy, the horrific reliability of the Porsche engine (what kind of car has multiple, commonly occurring problems that require a rebuild?!) put me off. The F1 gearbox might be clunky around town, but it's great on a spirited drive, which is what I use it for - it's a 10 year old modern classic for weekends and special days.

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Exactly this, i looked at 996 or early 997 in 2014 so all 9-10yrs old but heard too many horror stories of engine rebuilds at great cost (some web based stories as well as actual facts from garages)

Hence went for a reliable GS.

As a weekend toy the GS makes perfect sense for me.

m1980k said:

Maybe the 997 did make more sense as a new car and a daily driver. But as a second hand buy, the horrific reliability of the Porsche engine (what kind of car has multiple, commonly occurring problems that require a rebuild?!) put me off. The F1 gearbox might be clunky around town, but it's great on a spirited drive, which is what I use it for - it's a 10 year old modern classic for weekends and special days.

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Let me help you understand the Porsche marque. The engine issues you speak of are on normally aspirated (non-turbo) 996 cars and 997 gen1 cars. 997 gen2 (from MY 2009) have a completely different (DFI) engine. Prior to this the same engine was in the Boxster and the Cayman - so they are also having the fragility of the non-DFI engine.

The prices of those cars has meant many fell into the hands of owners able to afford a purchase but not able to afford the maintenance. Personally, I'd not touch any of those engines cars as they have an inherent weakness driven by Porsche's move to watercooled mass production, unlike the Mezger engines cars.

The 996 Turbo, 996 GT3, 996 GT2 and same for gen 1 997 Turbo, all 997 GT3/GT2 cats have a race-hewn Mezger true dry-sump engine originally derived from Porsche's 1998 Le Mans winning GT1. This engine is bullet-proof and does not bear the notorious reliability issues of the other cars I've mentioned.

I use my 996 Turbo for weekend on sunny days only.

I love my GS and I love my Turbo. Two very different cars.

I truly believe Porsche make the best sportscars in the world. The engineering attention to detail in the Turbo and the 997 Gen2 cars onwards is superb and well thought through. The 911 is the iconic sports car.

The Italians make beautiful cars but some of the attention to detail is not as great in my opinion, but the Ferrrari build blueprinted engine in the GS is superb. It is let down by perhaps tacky switch gear and small interior niggles that seem less ergonomic than the 5 clock fascia in the Porsche. When I drive the GS I never kick myself its not a Porsche. I knew that when I bought it!

After a 996 Turbo, there is little that can touch it for brute power and torque without re-map or tuning. It leaves most cars standing and makes overtaking manoeuvres possible that I'd hesitate with in the GS. The twin Turbos push the car at ballistic urge, the abdomen contents rise as one is thrust back into the seat - an absolute adrenaline rush.

The GS has that lively V8 growl, the torque that id outstanding for a normally aspirated car, and curves in all the right places with a seductive quality all-leather cream interior. Simply stunning just standing still!

I am fortunate to own both pedigree cars. And admire them equally in different ways.

And the 996 Turbo is pedestrian now compared to most other sportscars/supercars. The 991 Turbo is way quicker but for its time the 996 Turbo was rapid.

I drove a 996 Turbo and it was scary fast at times s get where Cheshiremaserayinis coming from.....it was some years ago mind you but surely still a very fast car but yes Phil I had a passenger ride a few months ago in the latest turbo S ...... Rucking bonkers....scared me to death.

Gear boxes are just one aspect of car driving, there is so much more when you own one.

Just trying a F1CC box will never give you the same experience as owning a car with one, and even then the experience will differ from car to car as they need to be set up well.

I have never thought my three CC cars were poor or below par compared to others, but most of these others were tried on a few miles not just a experience or test drive. However I was pleasantly surprised how muchbetter my GS is now after a new clutch.

I am sure if I was to own a Mclaran, Aston, Ferrari or Lambo I would fall in love with the experience after all its like women, they are all different and even the best looking one with perfect curves can turn out to be a b i t c h.

Agreed. Its total experience that matters.

Contigo said:

And the 996 Turbo is pedestrian now compared to most other sportscars/supercars. The 991 Turbo is way quicker but for its time the 996 Turbo was rapid.

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Each successive generation of 911's gets better - they just improve as they evolve - and the 911 has been evolving over more than 50 years. The 991 Turbo is a **** of a beast of a car - PDK box, Variable Turbine Geometry (which means the pitch or angle of attack of the blades in the turbine changes with increasing revs - clever Germans!) and far too much power for many - but the 996 is no slouch either against todays fast cars. It is still very rapid against 997 Gen 1 cars and the others with the PDK box and running much more power. Mine has the X50 option of larger (K24) turbos and runs a stock 450bhp and just too much torque at 620Nm.
It is the Turbo S without the ceramics - the 996 Turbo S was the run-out model only in 2005 prior to the gen 1 997 cars arriving. But it is the (almost) linear power delivery that propels it like a jet aircraft on a runway and still a factory standard car with stock suspension and brakes, it sees off today's hot hatches and M3's and even R8's and 360's (not tried against a F430 yet, but I'd guess there would be little in it in terms of speed, acceleration and the power delivery with the twin turbos compensating for the bigger V8's normally aspirated engine) due to the permanent all-wheel drive system with a viscous coupling between the front and rear diffs. It is engineering marvellous and that Mezger engine is a highly desirable collectors car - the 997 gen 2 turbo lost the Mezger but has a very reliable engine with PDK box (manual car being extremely rare in the 997.2 Turbo). The 991 Turbo S is another beast of a car. But people who sit in my car as passengers just find it stunning that a 15 year old car has so much to offer and still wipes out many of today's modern hot hatches and the others mentioned!
The 991 Turbo S is just too much, I could not even attempt to take it on - he'd just unleash launch control with 580bhp and 750Nm of torque which is way above me running 450bhp and 560Nm torque. We'd both end up losing our licenses in the blink of an eye!

The 996 Turbo among the Porsche fraternity is a highly respected (analogue feel) car and the right examples are fetching very good money - and that's the challenge - finding the right clean example. There are many out there that are absolute dogs with high mileages, skimped services and maintenance just waiting to eat the bank account and home and kids of the next buyer!
I accompany guys throughout the year to look at 996 Turbo cars - 9 times out of 10 I tell them to walk away cos its a dog and always recommend a PPI, see the car on the ramp with the specialist, interrogate the ECU for over-revs if its been hammered and to validate mileage. Many suffer oil leaks - very few of which can be fixed with the engine in situ. So its very often an engine out job beyond the basic service and maintenance. It is not unusual for these owners to have had the engine and/or gearbox dropped 2-3 times in three years to fix things that are not reachable with either of them in the car. That's why I always say they are high maintenance cars no matter what some DIYer might say about repairing his with the car on axle stands on the drive. And there are plenty of DIYer cars in the 996 range - though very few DIYer turbos or GT3 cars.

Understand your thoughts on the 991 Tutbo S....Only car I thought I may die in.....Just mind bending performance. Always liked the 996 Turbo and after driving one that hasn't changed. Yours sounds a great example and having the X50 option a very disirable car.....Would love to see some pictures if you gave any.

cheshiremaserati said:

Let me help you understand the Porsche marque. The engine issues you speak of are on normally aspirated (non-turbo) 996 cars and 997 gen1 cars. 997 gen2 (from MY 2009) have a completely different (DFI) engine. Prior to this the same engine was in the Boxster and the Cayman - so they are also having the fragility of the non-DFI engine.

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I know. But a decent 997.2 is a £40k car. I bought my 32,000 mile GS for £27k. I have no problem with Porsches. I'd love a GT3 RS or Cayman GT4 or 993 Turbo or various other models. But that has nothing to do with the 997 vs. GS question. And any 911 Turbo variant, with forced induction and 4wd, is even less comparable.

When I was looking for a sub £30k 4 seat sports car, I would have bought a 997.1 if they didn't have the engine problems. But they do.

Personally I don’t care about Porsche. I’ve tried to love them but other than the first incarnation in the early 70’s they leave me cold.

I accept that with each incarnation they improve the concept but for me I agree with Clarckson that Porsche employ designers that have run out of ideas.

It may be faster but is speed everything?

If I wanted one, I would buy one, but I don’t so I haven’t.

m1980k said:

But a decent 997.2 is a £40k car. I bought my 32,000 mile GS for £27k. I have no problem with Porsches. I'd love a GT3 RS or Cayman GT4 or 993 Turbo or various other models. But that has nothing to do with the 997 vs. GS question. And any 911 Turbo variant, with forced induction and 4wd, is even less comparable.

When I was looking for a sub £30k 4 seat sports car, I would have bought a 997.1 if they didn't have the engine problems. But they do.

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Sub £30k budget would get you into the brittle engines cars. That's true.
You'd love a 993 Turbo, well they go for £120,000. And as for a GT3 RS? Well that's into close to £200,000+ budget. A GT4 Cayman is much cheaper. You can get into one of those for around £75k, but its not a Mezger engine, only a Carrera engine.

Ewan said:

I see that in the 13 month test, of 12,000 miles, the 997 cost £11.5k in servicing and depreciation. That's hardly a recommendation.

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yes it would be interesting to compare how much it would cost to keep a GS moving for 12k miles, using it as a daily.

Em, yeh. I’ve had two 996turbos and I sold them because they are boring. The analogue feel you speak of is nonsense. No water cooled 911 has that really, and I’ve also owned a 996 c4s and a 996 Carrera. Porsche lost that with the 993 which is in every way a better car than any 996. The 993 turbo is in a different league to the 996 turbo. I’ve had two 993 turbo and a 993 carrera 4 that I loved so much I bought it twice.

I have no doubt whatsoever that a PDK gen2 carrera is much better than a Gransport. Shock horror!

However if the 996tt is boring, the 997 is positively coma inducing. It’s so very good that all the soul has been engineered out. And they are common as...

I’ll take passion over performance any day of the week.

The 996 interior is cheap and horrid. A 996 turbo at £40k has the same interior as a £4k Boxtser. Not at all a special place to be. The main reason I sold mine was because of this.

The GS is a better buy than the price comparable series 1 997 with its Russian roulette engine. The series 2 997 is a far better proposition, but more expensive and not therefore directly comparable with a GS.

Ewan said:

The 996 interior is cheap and horrid. A 996 turbo at £40k has the same interior as a £4k Boxtser. Not at all a special place to be. The main reason I sold mine was because of this.

The GS is a better buy than the price comparable series 1 997 with its Russian roulette engine. The series 2 997 is a far better proposition, but more expensive and not therefore directly comparable with a GS.

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I thought we were discussing this?

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-rev...t-review-2015/

check out the report in Car magazine at the 6 month ownership. Unfortunately the GS gets a bit of a kicking against a 997. Seems a bit unfair really as one is a 2009 reg, the other a 2006, so not like for like, but according to Ben Oliver the 997 is on another level. Still, we are all different and see things others don't and we will keep loving the brand no matter what!!
mm

A review back in 2015 - since then the prices of all 997's and 996's have risen sharply so dont know where the depreciation comes from. But not everyone wants a Porsche and not everyone who does is fortunate to have BOTH a Maser and a Porsche.
Porsche attract their own following (and I wont tell you what slating comments Porsche owners say about Italian V8s) but life is not about slating and slagging off others' tastes. I enjoy both my cars as already stated - but there was only ever one iconic prestige car that adorned my bedroom wall as a kid and then at University - and it wasn't a Maserati as good a car as it is.

Maybe marketing, maybe engineering, maybe ground-breaking turbo technology (brutal as it was with its single turbo and lag?) but each brand seems to have got something right to attract a following. That is for sure.

.
iconic prestige car that adorned my bedroom wall as a kid and then at University - and it wasn't a Maserati as good a car as it is.

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That wouldn't have been a white Lamborghini Countach 500 then

You could buy a hand full of 911's if you had one of those is your back pocket!


Dave