Manchester Arena Explosion

Pardon the language.....

Still don't agree. Until they've done something illegal then they are just people that have bad thoughts. You can't go around locking people up because they think differently. Its a very slippery slope and doesn't fit in a democracy. If that's the kind of place you want to live in then there are states around the world that are set up like that. Oddly a lot of the people in those countries risk their lives trying to get to ours.

On a slightly different topic our efforts aren't being helped with the White House releasing intelligence information passed in good faith to the US news networks without our approval and potentially compromising the effort to round up potential conspirators. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40026413 for more info

That's where the law needs to change, bad people with bad thoughts. Similar to obscene images, that was made illegal attempting to stop children being kidnapped murdered abused etc. Make whatever flags up these 1000s of "known" people illegal.

I'm quite sure every abused child, raped woman or victim of terrorism would be OK with people being picked up and questioned for thinking about committing these offences, it's easy to talk about civil liberties when it's other people on the news, not our child being scraped up with a shovel

These people need picking up at the planning stage, not after the event, if the law needs changing to allow that I'm fine with it

MrMickS said:

Still don't agree. Until they've done something illegal then they are just people that have bad thoughts. You can't go around locking people up because they think differently. Its a very slippery slope and doesn't fit in a democracy. If that's the kind of place you want to live in then there are states around the world that are set up like that. Oddly a lot of the people in those countries risk their lives trying to get to ours.

On a slightly different topic our efforts aren't being helped with the White House releasing intelligence information passed in good faith to the US news networks without our approval and potentially compromising the effort to round up potential conspirators. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40026413 for more info

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Are you serious? So someone goes on a training camp or visits Syria with no previous connections or moves to Libya and back to UK randomly and we can't intercept them because it's just bad thoughts? According to Libyan sources his brother knew of his intentions, lock him up too, it's his duty to report him etc....

MrMickS said:

Still don't agree. Until they've done something illegal then they are just people that have bad thoughts. You can't go around locking people up because they think differently. Its a very slippery slope and doesn't fit in a democracy. If that's the kind of place you want to live in then there are states around the world that are set up like that. Oddly a lot of the people in those countries risk their lives trying to get to ours.

On a slightly different topic our efforts aren't being helped with the White House releasing intelligence information passed in good faith to the US news networks without our approval and potentially compromising the effort to round up potential conspirators. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40026413 for more info

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This term is taken far too literally, a state has a exclusive right to protect citizens where there is grounds to do so. Even having a suspicion is grounds enough, let alone evidence of one's travels to war torn countries.

ChrisQP09 said:

?.. a state has a exclusive right to protect citizens where there is grounds to do so. Even having a suspicion is grounds enough, let alone evidence of one's travels to war torn countries.

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Sorry - I know this is an emotive topic, and there's not an easy answer here. However, I don't think locking people up, or deporting them, on the grounds of a suspicion of belief they might be thinking of doing something to harm others is the right answer. That will just lead to an increased cultural disconnect and a sense of persecution amongst minority groups.

MrMickS said:

Still don't agree. Until they've done something illegal then they are just people that have bad thoughts. You can't go around locking people up because they think differently. Its a very slippery slope and doesn't fit in a democracy. If that's the kind of place you want to live in then there are states around the world that are set up like that. Oddly a lot of the people in those countries risk their lives trying to get to ours.

On a slightly different topic our efforts aren't being helped with the White House releasing intelligence information passed in good faith to the US news networks without our approval and potentially compromising the effort to round up potential conspirators. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40026413 for more info

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These people aren't just having bad thoughts! These are under investigation, they are suspected potential terrorists not just people that have stumbled across some questionable internet sites, they are actively seeking information, they have contacts or know people operating in ISIS, they are supporting and promoting jihad, they are dangerous and in the thousands. The problem is there just isn't enough funding to keep all 3,500 under surveillance 24/7 as I've said before, so 2 options - deport or imprison, if there is any complications or retaliation then that should be treated as treason and they should be dealt with with indefinite imprisonment or the death penalty.
The sad thing is this man who carried out the Manchester attack was known to authorities but he was not on the list of 3,500 potentials, even know his views on jihad and suicide was well known in his local community, he only returned to the UK this month from Libya and the police were notified of this mans intentions twice but nothing was done. We either stand idle or let the public deal with it in their own way, it's only a matter of time until the retaliations begin.

Its a tough thread this, everyone has opinions and i have my own too which many on here will say is wrong but its my opinion......

What is clear is that the government are not doing enough, whenever something like this happens the police say they were known, well do something!!!

We are becoming soft........but then again can you stop these people? how do you stop someone who is willing to kill themselves?

The IRA was an issue when i was growing up but they are an organisation you could reason with and we did.....these guys are blowing themselves up and you cant stop that.....

There is nothing stopping any one of us from getting into our cars and driving into people or jumping on the tube and throwing people on the lines and jumping in with them....

Maybe pulling away from America and war might help??

Its a tough thread, with different opinions, its the great thing about this country of ours.

I don't think that we are soft and I don't think that we aren't doing anything. ISIS are being defeated in Syria and Iraq which, something the Met warned about 6+ months ago, is why the increased focus is on terrorist attacks in Western democracies. ISIS need this to be a holy war in order to justify themselves. We need to be careful not to give them what they want.

I feel we do have to uphold our laws. The suspension of Habeas Corpus, which some people have advocated, isn't something that we should do lightly. Its been part of UK law since the 17th Century, though it has been used prior to that. This isn't some EU or UN imposition its a long standing UK tradition and is basically that people are innocent until proven guilty under the law. Maybe we need to look at the burden of proof required, or what the CPS are prepared to go to court with.

We do have the option of suspending it. We have done for limited periods, and with judicial oversight, previously. I really don't want to see us jail people without trial though as the negative publicity from that will act as a recruitment banner and may make the situation worse rather than better.

What we should do is immediately increase our activity in Iraq and Syria with a show of brute force. Send the message to any would be attackers that we will not cower like the Spanish did in 2004 and start talking about withdrawing from theatre. Their goal is to make us live in fear, so many people brush it off as it's becoming common place to see this sort of thing on the news now, the route cause is embedded in Islam itself, this needs reform - if anyone can give examples of what ISIS is doing and what the Prophet did that are different? Tackling the problem are all these people have been radicalized is already too late, time to address the undermining belief systems shared by many, just look at what has just happened in the Philippines.

Destroy all the science and religion books and wipe the memory of everyone on the planet, fast forward 1000 years , all the science books would be exactly the same because the experiments would yield the same results, religion wouldn't exist or would be completely different to what it is today , it's utter ********, how anyone can let it rule their lives I have no idea.

Religion doesn't or shouldn't rule your life, it guides...

I can see the usual arguments coming up.

As a Manucunian, born(st Mary's Rusholme) and bred (till I joined the RAF), I admire my fellow Mancs for not letting hate get to them. We've probably not had any worse tragedy or loss of life since Peterloo but nonetheless they stand tall and shout 'is that all you've got?'

midlifecrisis said:

Religion doesn't or shouldn't rule your life, it guides...

I can see the usual arguments coming up.

As a Manucunian, born(st Mary's Rusholme) and bred (till I joined the RAF), I admire my fellow Mancs for not letting hate get to them. We've probably not had any worse tragedy or loss of life since Peterloo but nonetheless they stand tall and shout 'is that all you've got?'

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I agree with that...
But I fear the parents of the children lost and the children of their parents lost will not be saying that, they never will and I can't blame them, things such as this should be viewed as a personal attack on your own families, it could have been anyone on here and a few of the guys on here know or knew of people in the attack. Such a shame and waste of life, PC killed the United Kingdom.