Biturbo clock confusion - help appreciated!

Messages
388
I believe the second link (RHD) is correct for your 222. Also with the badge sometimes parts that Eurospares have listed aren't actually available and they have to check with the factory. Maserati are running low on spares for cars from this era as I know from having searched high and low for various parts for my Ghibli, so bear this in mind.
 

HaydnW

Junior Member
Messages
63
Yes I think you're right. It's the same as the one that I missed recently on EBay (which I'm still frustrated about!).
It looks like the clock in the second link is a brand new one - that would be nice to have, but I'm not too keen on the price + delivery + import costs. I'll get one eventually. :)
Thanks for the tip re:Eurospares too. I'm no stranger to that kind of circumstance with parts for my Alfa 164s - not ideal really!
 

Ewan

Member
Messages
6,757
Surely, if you suspect as such, you'd openly ask the seller of the 222 whether he is also the seller of the first clock on EBay, and if so, whether it's the clock from that car. Being charitable for a moment, if it is the same chap, he may say it's a clock he bought for that car before then discovering it was the wrong one.

The second EBay clock is certainly correct for a Maser of late 90's, but how far back that version started I couldn't say. The first EBay link is the earlier clock, as fitted in the 80's.
 

Scaf

Member
Messages
6,512
What a great thread this is, a 23yr old with good knowledge and the desire to learn from others and of course a passion for a rather rare model. Good luck, I will follow progress with interest.
 

HaydnW

Junior Member
Messages
63
Surely, if you suspect as such, you'd openly ask the seller of the 222 whether he is also the seller of the first clock on EBay, and if so, whether it's the clock from that car. Being charitable for a moment, if it is the same chap, he may say it's a clock he bought for that car before then discovering it was the wrong one.

The second EBay clock is certainly correct for a Maser of late 90's, but how far back that version started I couldn't say. The first EBay link is the earlier clock, as fitted in the 80's.
Well I was dancing around the subject if I'm honest - I know for a fact it's the same chap as I've seen him list it for sale elsewhere (Maserati page on Facebook). He told me it wasn't quite right for mine, but given my car came without the clock - which I was told went missing when the car had a respray - I couldn't help but wonder for myself, so I thought I would double-check on here. Hence, here we are :) I suspected it wasn't the correct one as it looks slightly older than the one I would need, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask those 'in the know'. Being new to these cars as I am, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from!
What a great thread this is, a 23yr old with good knowledge and the desire to learn from others and of course a passion for a rather rare model. Good luck, I will follow progress with interest.
Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it.
 

dickyb

Member
Messages
432
Going back to your question about parts manuals Haydn, you will probably be able to find almost everything you need in terms of diagrams on the Eurospares website. There is no specific section for the 222 4v so you will need to look at a combination of different models to find the information you need. The majority of it will be covered by the 2.24v which is very similar to the 222 4v both bodily and mechanically, but as usual there are a few exceptions. The 2.24v was an Italian market model and was fitted with the 2.0 24v motor so for anything engine related I would suggest you look at the Ghibli non-abs diagrams. The very early 2.8 Ghibli motor is almost identical to the one fitted to your car, the earliest cars built in 1992 even have the airbox at the back of the engine bay, although this didn't last long. You will also need to bear in mind that the 2.24v was only available in LHD so for any references to RHD specific items you'd need to look at the Biturbo E diagrams. To complicate things further, the Eurospares diagrams only cover the first series 2.24v so for items such as headlamps or wheels you'd need to look at the 4.24v section but again bear in mind that these were also only available in LHD and the the 4 door cars do have a few body and mechanical variations.

As has been mentioned previously, some of the information I have just suggested is to some extent academic as there are many parts that are NLA from Maserati but the diagrams are actually quite useful when you are dismantling stuff as you can get an idea of what is involved. Luckily Maserati sold a large number of Biturbos of all models and many parts are interchangeable so you should find what you need. If you have any problems please PM me and I can give you a few pointers for parts suppliers in Italy.

Any chance of some pictures of the 164 Savali? I have a 33 with some Sam Van Lingen parts so I'd be very interested to see your 164 :)
 

HaydnW

Junior Member
Messages
63
Another very helpful post, thanks dickyb.
That was my main concern you see - making sure I got the right parts in the knowledge that some would be model-specific. It'd be useful to have something as a direct reference - a bit like the Fiat ePer program for Alfas that shows parts and part numbers in exploded diagrams (which has been a godsend these last few years). But I'm sure I can make good use of the Eurospares website in the same way. Thanks for your continued help by the way, I appreciate it.

I'll upload some pictures of the 164 below :) it's got a slightly unusual backstory to it. I've had to piece together much of the car's past as I bought it with very little history (much like the Maserati) but the short version of the story is that the previous owner imported the car from Holland in 2004, he had a few issues with the engine bearings (not too uncommon on modified Alfa V6 blocks) but I gather he eventually solved these. By chance I met somebody at the recent Newby Hall Italian car show who knew who I was and happened to have looked after the Savali 164 for the previous owner (it's a small world!). He told me that the owner unfortunately went through some difficult personal circumstances and ended up leaving the country, parking the 164 in a barn. That was in 2008, so fast forward to early last year when I bought it via eBay from some removals men who clearly had no idea what it was and weren't really interested either, they just wanted the cash basically. Over the past year I've done quite a bit to it, including a full engine service, swapped out the interior for the factory Recaro sports seats, changed front and rear brake discs, pads and brake hoses, new clutch master and slave cylinders, currently repainting the front bumper and making a couple of small exhaust sections to fix some leaks, partway through welding a jacking point...etc etc... the list goes on! It's currently getting close to being roadworthy so I hope to be driving it within the next month or so, all being well. The only thing that 'bothers' me about the car (for want of a better word) is the lack of clues to it being a Savali car; there's no badges or special bodywork to speak of, the only real clues are the '3.5' maker's mark that has been scribed into the block, and some scraps of Sam Van Lingen paperwork. However, the chap I spoke to at Newby Hall confirmed that it was definitely a Savali-modified car. Regardless, it's in good condition outside, inside and underneath and I imagine it'll be great fun to drive :)

I managed to find and purchase an original metal Savali emblem for it too - rarer than hen's teeth!

Here is the car as found:



After a good wash back at home:


I cleaned and repainted parts of the engine while servicing it:


As it currently sits, looking a little sorry for itself:


The Savali badge - very tricky to get hold of and obviously needs a refurb.
 

HaydnW

Junior Member
Messages
63
I'd be interested to see your 33 too, I know Savali did all sorts for those including body kits. I have one of the 33 'Samfredo' catalogues/brochures on a shelf somewhere, if you're familiar with that car? Bright yellow, I believe it also had a 2.0 Boxer engine fitted. :)
 

safrane

Member
Messages
16,749
Lovely Alfa...remember seeing one of these back in the day...looked soooo cool.

Good luck getting it back on the road.
 

dickyb

Member
Messages
432
I remember seeing that car on ebay, I don't recall any mention of it being a Savali car though, had I known I'd have been after it too! Looks lovely, great find, hope the 4x4 system is ok, finding parts for it is a nightmare. Any plans for wheels? A set of 17" Zender Milanos would look beautiful! :)

Yes correct Savali did quite a lot of stuff for 33s as well as another Dutch company called Madeno Racing. The Savali bodykits and interiors were certainly "interesting". I know the yellow car, unfortunately it was crashed some time ago, I'm not sure if it was ever repaired.

savali_crashi.jpg

Benetton style interior, an acquired taste:

interieuri.jpg

Although they were badged as a 2.0 only the first few cars actually had a 2 litre Boxer engine, unfortunately it transpired that the cylinder walls were severely weakend by boring the motor out to 2 litres and a number of them failed. Subsequent cars were 1.8 litre.

Here are a couple of pictures of mine, not great quality but you'll get the idea. Its basically a new car, every single component on the car has been dismantled and everything is either new or refurbished. I've had a complete nightmare with the car mostly down to incompetent bodyshops screwing it up, followed by 2 lawsuits. A complete glass out respray that was so bad the car had to dismantled to a bare bodyshell and chemically stripped and re-painted again. Unfortunately this didn't work out too well and was followed by more visits to the bodyshop, I started the restoration 6 years ago and yet again its in the bodyshop at the moment and has been there for 13 months:(. It does run and drive and I did get 5 days use out of it last year before it had to return for its 4th visit to a bodyshop. It has a number of engine modifications: bored out to 1830cc with forged JE pistons, special Savali wheels that were imported from Holland, Savali lightened flywheel and camshafts plus lots of other goodies, too much to list here.

WP_000041i.jpg

WP_000057ii.jpg



Unfortunately there isn't a Maserati equivalent of Eper as such, this site is as close as it gets but won't be much use to you as it only covers later models, Ghibli onwards. You need to apply for an account but as far as I know its not limited to trade use:

www.maserati.ferrarmotor.it
 

HaydnW

Junior Member
Messages
63
Hi folks, apologies for my tardiness in replying. I've been rather busy with a combination of work and work on the cars. I'm still waiting on parts for my Alfa 164 Q4 project, so I figured I may as well make a start on the 222. So on Saturday evening I began the work required to remove the starter, which was subsequently removed on Sunday morning. My dad (who works for a friend who owns a classic car specialist garage) took the starter to work with him on Monday morning, where it was stripped to find that the internals were basically buggered. He returned home with a refurbished Valeo unit, which I then fitted on Tuesday morning, and I can happily report that the engine now turns over. :) Naturally I'm itching to see if it will fire, but I must resist the temptation, and replace the timing equipment first. Speaking of which - can someone please enlighten me as to the expected life of the cambelt tensioner? Doubtless I'll replace it anyway, but I'm just wondering.
Lovely Alfa...remember seeing one of these back in the day...looked soooo cool.

Good luck getting it back on the road.

Thanks very much, she's slowly getting there. Parts delays are the main problem!

I remember seeing that car on ebay, I don't recall any mention of it being a Savali car though, had I known I'd have been after it too! Looks lovely, great find, hope the 4x4 system is ok, finding parts for it is a nightmare. Any plans for wheels? A set of 17" Zender Milanos would look beautiful! :)

Yes correct Savali did quite a lot of stuff for 33s as well as another Dutch company called Madeno Racing. The Savali bodykits and interiors were certainly "interesting". I know the yellow car, unfortunately it was crashed some time ago, I'm not sure if it was ever repaired.

View attachment 37392

Benetton style interior, an acquired taste:

View attachment 37393

Although they were badged as a 2.0 only the first few cars actually had a 2 litre Boxer engine, unfortunately it transpired that the cylinder walls were severely weakend by boring the motor out to 2 litres and a number of them failed. Subsequent cars were 1.8 litre.

Here are a couple of pictures of mine, not great quality but you'll get the idea. Its basically a new car, every single component on the car has been dismantled and everything is either new or refurbished. I've had a complete nightmare with the car mostly down to incompetent bodyshops screwing it up, followed by 2 lawsuits. A complete glass out respray that was so bad the car had to dismantled to a bare bodyshell and chemically stripped and re-painted again. Unfortunately this didn't work out too well and was followed by more visits to the bodyshop, I started the restoration 6 years ago and yet again its in the bodyshop at the moment and has been there for 13 months:(. It does run and drive and I did get 5 days use out of it last year before it had to return for its 4th visit to a bodyshop. It has a number of engine modifications: bored out to 1830cc with forged JE pistons, special Savali wheels that were imported from Holland, Savali lightened flywheel and camshafts plus lots of other goodies, too much to list here.

View attachment 37394

View attachment 37395



Unfortunately there isn't a Maserati equivalent of Eper as such, this site is as close as it gets but won't be much use to you as it only covers later models, Ghibli onwards. You need to apply for an account but as far as I know its not limited to trade use:

www.maserati.ferrarmotor.it

To tell the truth I don't think the sellers had any clue as to what it was. Put it this way:
They gave me the service history, which clearly stated it was for a 155. You know, in writing. All over it. The registration in the paperwork was obviously not a match either.
They gave me the keys, which weren't actually the keys for that car. They insisted they wouldn't fit because the barrel was seized (it wasn't).
The car was listed three times on eBay (with me buying it on the third occasion) and each time the description was different. It was only the third time that they mentioned it had 4wd!

For the wheels; yes, by coincidence I am in the middle of a home refurb of a set of 17" Zender Milano wheels, which will be fitted to the Q4 in time. I'm attempting a polished metal look, which involves lots of wet sanding and buffing, so you can probably imagine how long each wheel takes to complete...

Madeno rings a bell, though I think they've been out of business for some time? I totally agree about the Savali, errrr, 'enhancements'. To say they're an acquired taste is one **** of an understatement. That interior is the stuff of nightmares! Interesting to read about the problems with the Boxer block, I've not heard of that before. I know the previous owner of my 164 Q4 had issues with engine bearings failing, which he seemingly rectified by cleaning lots of oily swarf out from inside the crankshaft - it seems quite believable that this could have been Savali's doing. I've read about another big-bore V6 having bearing troubles too, though this was an Autodelta 3.7 engine, so it would seem the issues aren't limited to one company. Sorry to hear about your troubles with the bodyshops, I don't envy you being messed around like that. Beautiful 33 though, looks great, and I imagine it pulls quite nicely with the Savali additions?
 

dickyb

Member
Messages
432
I would suggest you change the timing belt tensioner at every timing belt change (every 24000 miles, or every 3 years whichever is soonest), I would also suggest you carefully check the waterpump at the same interval.

Excellent choice of wheels for the 164, they look awesome on Zender Milanos. My Savali wheels are very similar to Milanos & they were very expensive to restore, finding replacement split rim style bolts was very difficult. Do you have any need for a new Q4 badge? I have a brand new one in stock if required.

Madeno Racing are still going but they don't do much for older Alfa Romeos any more, only the 105 series, shame as they had some awesome tuning parts for 75s, 33s & 164s.

I think overboring an engine block always carries risks, I suppose you have to know the maximum you can take it to. I think Savali got it wrong on their first batch of boxers. You can get 2 litre capacity litre from them but you need to fit a longer throw crankshaft, AH Motorsports do a kit but the cost is probably more than most 33s are worth!

Thanks for your kind comments on my 33, it does look really nice now but its only covered 300 miles since I built the engine so its still very tight. It might improve with miles but its running on standard management which I suspect is holding it back. If it ever comes home from the bodyshop it will be rolling road tested & I may well have to go down the Omex programmable ECU route. Is your 164 on custom engine management?
 

HaydnW

Junior Member
Messages
63
That's exactly the info I was after, thanks.

I tend to take pictures as I work on the cars as a means of documenting what I've done. It also comes in handy when you find yourself wondering "Where did this part go? What does that connect to?" and so on. So I have a couple of pictures to share. First up - it would seem the car has not had regular coolant changes.


Secondly - is this the factory finish on the inlet ports? No problems if it is, it's just that all others I've seen thus far have been a smoother finish, whereas this looks like it might have been machined further at some point.


Aside from that there's a few other things that need correcting, such as a pipe that has been sealed into the air filter housing with what looks like polyurethane sealant, some missing jubilee clips, and so on. The throttle body also has a small crack in it so probably best to replace that. I've not found anything too worrying yet (touch wood). I had previously hoped the chromed pipes in the engine bay could be saved with some wire wool and elbow grease but having tried this on a few different patches I think the corrosion has gone too far :/


The final picture: I decided the following item would be useful as a quick point of reference. Having flicked through it briefly this morning I imagine it's going to come in very useful. It caters for the SR, Racing, 2.24V and (most importantly!) the 4V.

I might begin a separate thread for the Maserati progress, as this thread has swerved off topic. :)

Regarding the Alfa, Zender did some really nice wheels in period. Both the Milano and Siena are great designs, if a little heavy. I wonder if your Savali wheels are OZ Milanos? I have a Savali 33 brochure with a picture of them, they look very much like the OZ wheels. If so, they're extremely rare, probably more so than Zender Milanos. Thanks for the offer but I don't need a Q4 badge at the moment; I bought brand new badges for the car when I first collected it :) Shame about Madeno, as you say they did all sorts of tuning bits for cars of the 33/164 era and were one of very few companies to do so.

Indeed, I suppose sometimes the best way to learn about the engines is to test them to the limit. I think the maximum the Alfa V6 can be taken to is 3.8, but I feel a bit safer at 3.5!

No problem, I always have time to admire another Alfa. Interesting thoughts regarding the engine management, I think it's pretty much a given that aftermarket management systems can benefit 'modified' engines. As far as I can tell the 164 is still using the Bosch Motronic 3.7, I've considered the possibilities of standalone management but I think the cost will hold me back. It requires money to be spent on other areas before I fine-tune it :) There's a few suppliers to choose from, others include Megasquirt and Haltech. I think Squadra Tuning can provide engine management systems too?
 

dickyb

Member
Messages
432
:) looks like your cooling system was well overdue for a refresh!
your inlet ports do look as though they've been knife edged although its not very easy to see in the photo. A lot of the engine castings were finished by hand at the factory so its possible your ports were like that from the factory & just had a little more attention.

Shame about your inlet pipes, it would probably be cheaper to buy some replacements than have them rechromed, might be worth making some enquiries. The ones on my project 2.24v were totally rusted through but I had some replacements made by a stainless exhaust company, it should be fairly simple for you to get some stainless tube bent to shape.

The Savali wheels on my 33 were actually made especially for Van Lingen by Alessio, I think they were called Imolas. They're pretty well identical to OZ Milanos in appearance but the OZs are split rims & the Alessios are pretend split rims.

You're right, standalone engine management is the way to go if you want to make the most of your engine mods but the costs are very high. Omex & Emerald systems are good value but the electronics etc will be close to £1000 then you need a lot of rolling road setup/mapping time which could be another £1000 or so. Haven't seen anything from Squadra other than their performance chips, they are supposed to be good. I have a Superchip on the 33 which is quite good. No progress on the 33, its nearly 15 months into its latest bodyship visit & still not finished, I don't think they've touched it for months :(

Keep us posted on progress with the 222 & 164, always happy to help with any info you may need.
 

HaydnW

Junior Member
Messages
63
Indeed! The condition of the coolant is a bit of a concern, but I'm sure that once I've flushed it out and replaced it, it'll be fine. I thought the ports looked a little strange, not a problem of course, I was just curious. I think I'll have to buy some new inlet pipes, the current ones haven't responded well to my attempts to clean them up and I don't want to keep them looking like that for obvious reasons. I'll start looking for a set, or as you say, I could always have a set made.

Ah Alessio, I forgot about them. They made some nice wheels for Alfas but you very rarely see any sets for sale. Thinking about it, there's a sizeable group of wheels that all share the same design - OZ Milano, Speedline SZ/RZ wheels, Speedline 164 wheels, Zender Milano, Alessio...the list goes on! I guess these companies ran out of imagination during this period ;)

I agree regarding the standalone management, I wouldn't even know where to start with it all. Particularly on something like my 164 Q4, with all manner of wires and sensors everywhere...trying to make sense of all of that would give me a headache. I think I'd rather spend the money elsewhere; then again, if you modify the engine, exhaust, intake etc I suppose it's inevitable that you'll eventually need to tune the ecu to make the most of the modifications. Sorry to hear that your 33 isn't getting anywhere, have you paid them a recent visit? If you're a paying customer they should at least maintain contact with you. Go visit them...take a friend...or a few friends. Haha.

I will do, and thanks - I appreciate it. :)
 
Messages
388
They never were made by Cartier - it's the Lasalle one you want. You'll be able to get one from David Askew (Google David Askew Maserati Parts and his site will come up). Easy.
I remember at Festival Italia a few years ago. A couple of guys were looking into the cabin of the Ghibli. One turned to the other and with all seriousness said "you see that gold clock in the dash, you know those are made by Rolex..."

I smiled and said nothing :laughing: