Ouch!! Me and my big mouth about my Insurance premium - now the dreaded renewal -

Steve GS

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1,526
Mine went up from £1100 to £1600. So I shopped around and got a great deal from ensure under £500.
 

Ewan

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6,757
The cover you get from Hiscox via PW is way above the budget providers, but obviously you pay a bit more for it. You can pay peanuts and get monkeys if you wish, but I'd rather know that I'm properly covered without quibbles, including recovery, home start, overseas cover, track days, my choice of repairer, my choice of security, etc. Still averages out at less than £500 per car per year, even when the 599 was added a couple of weeks back (which was £1k by itself). For example, the Mini Moke is only about £100, even though it's value is £15k and it has no security - well, it doesn't even have doors, windows or a roof!
 

rockits

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9,167
If you are not a trader, I can't see how you could even attempt to buy a trader policy.
Misrepresentation is a serious offence effectively meaning the insurance is null and void. If you are a limited company they can check at Companies House and the Register of Persons with Significant Control, your registered address, your VAT number if registered for VAT, ask you to submit the past year's trading account as part of due diligence and so on.

Try comparison sites for multi-car policies and shop around. But with that number of cars it is going to be a considerable element of ownership costs - try also classic car policies - see Modern Classics magazine for the ads for such insurance brokers, as well as limited mileage policies.

That is a big list of cars you own.
I'm not sure there is an issue as far as I am aware. I am effectively a part time trader but don't make money from it but don't lose money either.

What us the misrepresentation? Everything is declared, I've completed all forms honestly & accurately.
 

rockits

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9,167
Agreed, I have bought and sold about 7 or 8 in the last year and never really considered a trade policy for the obvious tax declaration reason. I'm in a good position to be able to borrow my mates trade plates when I want to collect and move cars etc....
What is the tax declaration thing?

Are you insured on your mates trade plates? I would check. I have trade plates & have to add/register them to my policy. Unless you are insured under his trade insurance you won't be insured with his plates under your insurance. You may well be but worth checking if you haven't.
 
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1,117
I'm not sure there is an issue as far as I am aware. I am effectively a part time trader but don't make money from it but don't lose money either.

What us the misrepresentation? Everything is declared, I've completed all forms honestly & accurately.

There is a difference in your interpretation (on the face if it and without knowing your setup) of *effectively* being a trader and if HMRC will interpret it that way. Assuming by *effectively* you mean a sole trader and not a limited company then the rules are clear: They include that you must have a name for the business and it can be your own name, that it must be listed on correspondence and invoices/receipts for sales and enquiries; you must register the business for Self Assessment and pay tax on any profits; you must pay Class 2 NIC's and of course register for VAT if your turnover (not profits) exceeds the limit where registration is not required (£85,000 I think). In addition you are required to keep meticulous records to support your annual filings to HMRC for their assessment if tax on profits is due as well as to support any HMRC tax enquiry.

If you have been doing all this and are still doing these, then you are a trader. There is no word in the law or HMRC such as *effectively a trader* - you must prove you are and the rules are laid out clearly. The misrepresentation occurs when/if one says they are something that they are not.
 

Contigo

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There is a difference in your interpretation (on the face if it and without knowing your setup) of *effectively* being a trader and if HMRC will interpret it that way. Assuming by *effectively* you mean a sole trader and not a limited company then the rules are clear: They include that you must have a name for the business and it can be your own name, that it must be listed on correspondence and invoices/receipts for sales and enquiries; you must register the business for Self Assessment and pay tax on any profits; you must pay Class 2 NIC's and of course register for VAT if your turnover (not profits) exceeds the limit where registration is not required (£85,000 I think). In addition you are required to keep meticulous records to support your annual filings to HMRC for their assessment if tax on profits is due as well as to support any HMRC tax enquiry.

If you have been doing all this and are still doing these, then you are a trader. There is no word in the law or HMRC such as *effectively a trader* - you must prove you are and the rules are laid out clearly. The misrepresentation occurs when/if one says they are something that they are not.

Exactly the reason I can't be bothered to do it. From a legal point of view it is a can of worms if not registered with HMRC. Imagine having a crash and heaven forbid there were casualties? It's just not worth it for a few hundred quid savings.
 

Contigo

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What is the tax declaration thing?

Are you insured on your mates trade plates? I would check. I have trade plates & have to add/register them to my policy. Unless you are insured under his trade insurance you won't be insured with his plates under your insurance. You may well be but worth checking if you haven't.

Yes I am registered on their trade plates.
 

rockits

Member
Messages
9,167
There is a difference in your interpretation (on the face if it and without knowing your setup) of *effectively* being a trader and if HMRC will interpret it that way. Assuming by *effectively* you mean a sole trader and not a limited company then the rules are clear: They include that you must have a name for the business and it can be your own name, that it must be listed on correspondence and invoices/receipts for sales and enquiries; you must register the business for Self Assessment and pay tax on any profits; you must pay Class 2 NIC's and of course register for VAT if your turnover (not profits) exceeds the limit where registration is not required (£85,000 I think). In addition you are required to keep meticulous records to support your annual filings to HMRC for their assessment if tax on profits is due as well as to support any HMRC tax enquiry.

If you have been doing all this and are still doing these, then you are a trader. There is no word in the law or HMRC such as *effectively a trader* - you must prove you are and the rules are laid out clearly. The misrepresentation occurs when/if one says they are something that they are not.
I'm afraid your mistaken on a few points here. I'm more than happy with my position thanks & happy to stay the way I am. There is no issue here.
 

rockits

Member
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9,167
There is a difference in your interpretation (on the face if it and without knowing your setup) of *effectively* being a trader and if HMRC will interpret it that way. Assuming by *effectively* you mean a sole trader and not a limited company then the rules are clear: They include that you must have a name for the business and it can be your own name, that it must be listed on correspondence and invoices/receipts for sales and enquiries; you must register the business for Self Assessment and pay tax on any profits; you must pay Class 2 NIC's and of course register for VAT if your turnover (not profits) exceeds the limit where registration is not required (£85,000 I think). In addition you are required to keep meticulous records to support your annual filings to HMRC for their assessment if tax on profits is due as well as to support any HMRC tax enquiry.

If you have been doing all this and are still doing these, then you are a trader. There is no word in the law or HMRC such as *effectively a trader* - you must prove you are and the rules are laid out clearly. The misrepresentation occurs when/if one says they are something that they are not.
If you want it a little more concisely....I AM NOT A TRADER....tell that to Mr HMRC.
 
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1,117
But you talked of *effectively being a trader* and I have clarified the use of the term *effective* does not exist in the law and the HMRC. If you choose to find a trader policy on this belief it is entirely your choice. Thanks for confirming though that you are not a trader after the clarification. I have no interest in telling it to HMRC - that is your obligation if pursuing a trader policy on the basis you declared.
 

rockits

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9,167
It seems I fulfil the requirements to have a motor trade insurance policy but do not meet the criteria to be classified as a motor trader.

To be honest it is all a royal PITA. Car tax is also a pain. It seems people like me do not fit a mainstream profile for anything. Insurance, mortgages...etc. etc...I don't know why as I am not that special/different and only earn 5 figures. Never want six figures in my life. We employ some staff/contractors are only a small business but I have to deal with 4 Ltd company annual returns/accounts/vat returns/paye/pensions etc....I'm really not sure it is all worth it TBH. I always toy if I'm better off going to get a job & having 6 weeks paid holiday & another 2 weeks paid sick leave!
 

philw696

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25,114
Having been self employed in the Motor Trade for many years before coming to NZ I for one are glad to be in a paid job to see my career out.
I had my own red and white plates purely for my self registered for Vehicle Testing in my name only.
The plates are abused massively I was guilty of that taking my M3 to the forum trackday with them.
In the end my insurance insisted that my 4200 and the Ferraris I had were insured on there own policy.
Interesting thread though.
 

rockits

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9,167
My precious trade policy didn't cover sports cars in the end. It covered the 4200 for up to 6 months which was fine. Tradex have a sports car option so all covered fine. Covers me and wife on all cars up-to 30k value each & up-to 10 cars in total including personally owned/used ones. It fits my requirements for the moment perfectly.

I've not needed to even think about abusing the plates but I can see how it does happen.
 

Needamaser

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1,491
On the insurance side the Insurance Act 2015 came into force last August.
There is a legal duty to disclose any material fact to an Insurer which could affect their decision whether to grant cover or amend their terms.
Because they they didn't ask a specific question which you know would possibly affect their decision process and you choose not to tell them is a breach. If not sure you disclose.
Seems a potential issue to say someone is "effectively a trader" them definitely not a trader but has a motor trade policy.
As long as Tradex have been told exactly what the position is then all ok but Tradex have a reputation in the industry for being difficult at times with claims. In my experience they are difficult with most claims. The larger the claim the more investigation they will carry out and more likely to repudiate. If they have been told exactly what you are doing then nothing to worry about.