4200 wheel bearings

[Zep]

Oh yes, I remember now. I will save that cutting disc (again )

 

[Zep]

I'm near York but that shouldn't be a problem. Someone posted a sectioned picture of the bearing and it shows the out race as being part of the bearing housing. Why they chose to do it that way I'm not sure. Was it because they thought it was a better solution or is it cheaper to make it like that. Anyway we will never know if there's a solution unless one is carefully dismantled. Then it would come down to how much of the parent material was available to work with and some degree of sideways thinking. I feel that some of the problems with these cars are worth looking at, because if for example you replaced all the wishbones, the wheel bearings and the clutch you would be approaching the value of the car.

I do agree, however while I am happy to fiddle with oil pressure senders and to a degree tie rods, even a well thought out replacement for a wheel bearing will need to be carried out by a reputable engineering firm with suitable product liability insurance, among other things as is the case with the alternative brake discs etc. This will make it an uneconomic enterprise in my view as the upfront investment will be significant even if (and it is an if) the end result is cheaper than the original.

 

[Zep]

Not being anymore conversant with engineering theory than the average layman, I wonder at the complexity of the manufacturing process...
Clearly, there must be an underlying principle that steered the designers away from making a more conventional hub/bearing/abs system. (edit- the car is only 12 years old. Manufacturing materials and processes were already quite developed in relative terms, improving on the limitations in this regard) Unsealed would seem to be asking for trouble...!!!
At least they are all four the same..!

I have had a look around the history of this part. The assembly type seems to date back to the 80s with the integral bearing / housing in various Ferrari’s. Back then an integral hub bearing would have seemed like a tip top idea. And now it’s a cracking way to keep raking in some cash. And to be fair, they don’t fail all that often. I bought one 3 years ago to hedge against price increases and I still have it in the box.

 

[TimR]

I suppose it's the cost of owning a car built by the "wild child" of the automotive industry...

 

[atreyu1]

I suppose it's the cost of owning a car built by the "wild child" of the automotive industry...

First of all, are we absolutely sure that the bearing in the picture is actually the type fitted to our cars. Or is it just a proposed idea. If that's just a picture in isolation then it maybe doesn't mean much. If however it's linked to a Maserati drawing then that would be different. Can someone answer this question for me. Why is it that we see on television programmes such as Wheeler Dealers vehicles being modified in quite serious ways. For example a VW camper being fitted with a completely different steering rack plus other associated steering parts. Or cars being fitted with adjustable air suspension. There are many examples of this and at the end of the programme it always says that any mods carried out comply with all the regulations. I recently saw a new style Morgan 3 wheeler which had been fitted with what amounted to an alloy block inserted into the upper front wishbones to improve the handling. This was professionaly made and quite a popular mod apparently, but not approved by anyone in any way. So how is it that our cars are different.

 

[Zep]

First of all, are we absolutely sure that the bearing in the picture is actually the type fitted to our cars. Or is it just a proposed idea. If that's just a picture in isolation then it maybe doesn't mean much. If however it's linked to a Maserati drawing then that would be different. Can someone answer this question for me. Why is it that we see on television programmes such as Wheeler Dealers vehicles being modified in quite serious ways. For example a VW camper being fitted with a completely different steering rack plus other associated steering parts. Or cars being fitted with adjustable air suspension. There are many examples of this and at the end of the programme it always says that any mods carried out comply with all the regulations. I recently saw a new style Morgan 3 wheeler which had been fitted with what amounted to an alloy block inserted into the upper front wishbones to improve the handling. This was professionaly made and quite a popular mod apparently, but not approved by anyone in any way. So how is it that our cars are different.

The picture I posted is of a bearing that came off my car. The cutaway GP79 posted looks exactly like it and having examined my bearing further the construction looks exactly the same.

The examples you gave from Wheeler Dealers are valid, however in the case of most if not all of them they were designed and constructed by commercial enterprises who will hold appropriate public and product liability insurance. This is not an approval process, it is a liability process.

You can put whatever you like on your car (providing it doesn’t make it unroadworthy) but if it fails and you find yourself upside down in a ditch, someone has to pay - or prove that the product was of sound engineering design and the failure wasn’t related to the design, manufacture or material quality.

For example, if a garage fits a wheel bearing to your car which later falls off, causing an accident, if the failure is caused by their workmanship (loose bolts for example) they would be liable for this if it can be proved. If you assemble a set of components from a manufacturer and fit them yourself, you are liable for the workmanship element, they are responsible for the product liability element.

So in short, our cars are no different, but the risk / reward equation for the remaking of a wheel bearing is quite heavily skewed towards the risk side.

 

[atreyu1]

The picture I posted is of a bearing that came off my car. The cutaway GP79 posted looks exactly like it and having examined my bearing further the construction looks exactly the same.

The examples you gave from Wheeler Dealers are valid, however in the case of most if not all of them they were designed and constructed by commercial enterprises who will hold appropriate public and product liability insurance. This is not an approval process, it is a liability process.

You can put whatever you like on your car (providing it doesn’t make it unroadworthy) but if it fails and you find yourself upside down in a ditch, someone has to pay - or prove that the product was of sound engineering design and the failure wasn’t related to the design, manufacture or material quality.

For example, if a garage fits a wheel bearing to your car which later falls off, causing an accident, if the failure is caused by their workmanship (loose bolts for example) they would be liable for this if it can be proved. If you assemble a set of components from a manufacturer and fit them yourself, you are liable for the workmanship element, they are responsible for the product liability element.

So in short, our cars are no different, but the risk / reward equation for the remaking of a wheel bearing is quite heavily skewed towards the risk side.

That seems logical but at some point someone is going to have to do something about the spares required to keep these cars on the road. Already we are seeing certain parts for the 3200 become unavailable. It hasn't happened with the 4200 but it will l'm sure. Perhaps it should be looked into before it happens.

 

[Gp79]

I think the only solution would be to use an Volvo XC90 wheel bearing (£50 and same pcd as ours, not sure about mounting bolts to suspension) then if it fits suspension find a way to retro fit the abs ring and pick up.
At least the mechanical side is factory.

 

[TimR]

Not a fan of ABS...!

 

[Gp79]

Not a fan of ABS...!

Just use a timing circuit to make ABS light go on and off for MOT time!

 

[Zep]

That seems logical but at some point someone is going to have to do something about the spares required to keep these cars on the road. Already we are seeing certain parts for the 3200 become unavailable. It hasn't happened with the 4200 but it will l'm sure. Perhaps it should be looked into before it happens.

I don't disagree, sadly as a bespoke alternative will undoubtedly be more expensive than the original there won't be a demand until the OEM supply dries up.

 

[Zep]

Having said that, you are very welcome to my old bearing.

 

[rs48635]

same on all our cars - the 3200 front bearing is £400+
my current QP needs a second bearing at £460+ ; annoyingly the first one was replaced at McGrath to fix ABS only issue. Strangely the old part could not be found when I asked for it back........

 

[Lozzer]

That seems logical but at some point someone is going to have to do something about the spares required to keep these cars on the road. Already we are seeing certain parts for the 3200 become unavailable. It hasn't happened with the 4200 but it will l'm sure. Perhaps it should be looked into before it happens.

Agree 100%, the exact reason I'm trying to get these pressed up Men in sheds and all that lol.

 

[davy83]

I'm near York but that shouldn't be a problem. Someone posted a sectioned picture of the bearing and it shows the out race as being part of the bearing housing. Why they chose to do it that way I'm not sure. Was it because they thought it was a better solution or is it cheaper to make it like that. Anyway we will never know if there's a solution unless one is carefully dismantled. Then it would come down to how much of the parent material was available to work with and some degree of sideways thinking. I feel that some of the problems with these cars are worth looking at, because if for example you replaced all the wishbones, the wheel bearings and the clutch you would be approaching the value of the car.

in most cases this is what happens and it far exceeds the value of the car. I have probably spent 3 times what I spent buying the car keeping it running

 

[Gp79]

in most cases this is what happens and it far exceeds the value of the car. I have probably spent 3 times what I spent buying the car keeping it running

3 times the cars value? In how long and what’s been done?

It must be completely rebuilt?!

 

[davy83]

well I have had the car for 12 years!! but I have replaced all of the suspension arms plus some of them twice. two damaged shock control motors. both turbos and all the hoses, stripped and rebuilt top end twice for starter motor and knock sensors, on my 2nd set of knock sensors. rear shocks stripped and refurbished twice now, fronts once. replaced one front shock. replaced rear drive train, bearings, drive shafts and prop shaft and the back end of the gear box. dismantled dash twice once for airbag issue and once for heater problem. backed into a concrete post 2 weeks after buying it, caused rear of car to be replaced. contactless TB and pedal sensor, several attempts to get this right. Brakes stripped and fixed a few times and recently had calipers re-manufactured, two sets of door window switches and window motor problems requiring stripping of doors, upgraded window motors to 4200 units on 2nd attempt. had corner weights checked and adjusted, and have had the full geometry done twice (spacers and shimming and all that). and So i paid 10sih for the car and must be nearly on 30k spend in 12 years, which is less than 3k per year and this is (I believe) on the low side for these cars, because i did quite a lot of the work myself. if you reckon on 3-4k per year typical then a 12k car will cost as much to run in just 3 years. Too many expensive parts (ball joints, suspension, drivetrain, shocks) to get the cost of running down much more i think.

 

[TimR]

I personally reckon you should be getting 10K of kms for that sort of rebuild schedule...!
Or you bought a basket case that was in need of attention from the start to some extent. Nothing that a wrench savvy, hands on owner should be shy of, and it would perhaps explain if you simply havent had time to get the miles in...but some of those failures/repairs shouldnt be coming round quite as "hot on the heels" so to speak...!
3200 are a different animal but I'm screwed if my 4200 starts requiring the same level of maintenance yearly...!!

 

[davy83]

well I would be interested in others experience but I don't believe there is a 3200 ever made that would run for 10k KM without some thing going wrong, its just not possible? I am tidying up all the issues at the moment for the 20th anniversary trip in October and would expect a couple of years with only minor problems. perhaps 6-8k km with only service work but I would be expecting trouble within 3 years again.

 

[Lozzer]

well I would be interested in others experience but I don't believe there is a 3200 ever made that would run for 10k KM without some thing going wrong, its just not possible? I am tidying up all the issues at the moment for the 20th anniversary trip in October and would expect a couple of years with only minor problems. perhaps 6-8k km with only service work but I would be expecting trouble within 3 years again.

I've just about clocked 5000 miles in the first 12 months, only real problem that put me off the road was the burst coolant hose for the turbo (fixed the same day) , although I've still spent a small fortune on service and preventetive maintenance items, brakes, pedal pot, etc, currently on with replacing all the coolant hoses for the Roose ones, and of course that might as well include knock sensors and starter while it's in bits. Also with all the hoses off the front I might as well look at fitting a DA oil pressure sender as that's been bouncing all over the place recently, and so the list keeps growing. Seems to be "if you're replacing that you might as well do.......xxx" and the cost of parts, if you can get them, that bumps the costs up, pretty sure the last time I looked at "the spreadsheet" I was well over 2k spent without the current work I'm doing and I haven't even looked at the suspension yet, that's next month when it's booked in for a service and 4 wheel alignment, I'm dreading that one lol still, never mind eh?