1st problem - diagnosis help please!

smg800

New Member
Messages
66
Hello chaps

As some of you may know I recently picked up a lovely 2009 plate white Granturismo S which I have enjoyed for the past week other than the fact snow, ice and rain have severely inhibited the use of it to the extent I'd like!

Today I have picked up my first problem and would be keen to see if anyone has any ideas as to the issue, solution etc.

I dropped my car off for a valet in a multi storey car park as I did a bit of shopping today and jumped into a sparkly clean vehicle straight after. As I exited the car park down the ramp I heard a bit of a grinding sound when I applied the brake and said to the other half I need to check I haven't kerbed it (driver side front) - I was pretty sure I hadn't as I was miles from the kerb but it was that kind of sound. As I drove off I heard a slight flapping sound on the way home, almost as if a twig or branch was stuck in the alloy or something and was making noise in the wind - I thought nothing of it other than to check the wheel when I got home, I did so and sure enough no kerbing, nothing caught in the alloy and nothing dragging underneath the vehicle.

I then got back in the car after getting changed to head to the gym and heard the same slight catching noise, which escalated when I opened up on a dual carriage way - I hit about 70 and heard a bang which I thought was a blown tyre or something at the time! I immediately jumped into the slow lane and slowed to 50ish with the windows open and sport mode off so I could hear what was happening and it sounded as if I was dragging some metal under the car or as if there was something fairly severely grinding on the driver side front tyre.

Truly baffling, there is nothing caught under the car, nothing visibly caught in any of the alloys and no bumper hanging off and dragging (which at one point sounded like it might be).

Does anyone have any ideas as to what the problem could be? Anything else I should be checking for? Desperately worried my new car is broken already haha.:frusty5:
 

smg800

New Member
Messages
66
Parking brake pads delaminating would be my *guess*

C

Thanks Catman, I have done a bit of reading on this since you suggested it and the symptoms sound very similar! I seem to have found more on Volvo and LandRover forums rather than Maserati - is it a common problem? What kind of expense are we talking? Frustrating to have something like this happen 30 days after a Maserati health check.....
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,547
Not sure about the GT's I'm afraid. The 4200s have this issue. The pads can weld to the drum and then break up.

Cost for the 4200 is not *so* bad, as long as you don't buy the official pads, as they are stupidly overpriced. Again, no idea about the GT I'm afraid.

Tell you what, though. I'll take it off your hands ;)

C
 

smg800

New Member
Messages
66
OK, have had this looked at this morning.

- The driver side rear wheel was taken off, and the brake caliper and disc were removed
- The handbrake pads fell out on removal and had completely broken apart
- The broken handbrake pads had damaged the hub and carrier significantly
- The inner side of the disc where the handbrake pads meet are badly scored

The garage have advised a new hub and carrier shield needs to be fitted, handbrake pads/shoes kit to be fitted and new rear brake discs need to be fitted. The handbrake pads/discs need to be fitted as a set I.e. On both sides as I can’t risk this occuring on the other side – the garage have suggested the shoes have been caught between the hub and the disc which led to the loud bang and the wheel locking up which is more than dangerous, I was quite lucky.

My man from the garage is baffled as to how the car was sold to me in this condition and how it passed a handbrake efficiency test on the MOT. Oddly the Maserati Health Check states rear pads/shoes ok – clearly they weren’t for this to happen 11 days after my purchase.

Completely worn out brake shoe.jpgHandbrake shoe.jpgBroken Hub bent and damaged.jpgInner disc.jpgBroken Hub.jpg

Arnold Clark will cover this repair which will be circa £1.5k to £2k according to the chap that looked at it this morning.....however I am having some severe doubts here.

For a start my nearest Arnold Clark dealerships (they told me to take it to my local one) are either Kia or Vauxhall, do I really want them fixing my car. Secondly the supposed Health Check and MOT clearly weren't as comprehensive as one would hope for a problem this major to be overlooked and it has me worried as to what else is going to go wrong. Perhaps I am being paranoid but a tiny part of me is toying with the idea of returning the car, but not sure if this would be slightly melodramatic.

I would welcome any thoughts from the forum!
 

Chrisbassett

Member
Messages
3,909
Arrange with Arnold Clark to take the car to your nearest trusted maser specialist independent and get them to both fix the brakes and give it a thorough inspection.
 

highlander

Member
Messages
5,214
Arrange with Arnold Clark to take the car to your nearest trusted maser specialist independent and get them to both fix the brakes and give it a thorough inspection.

^^^^^what he said^^^^
But if AC not keen remind them this a high performance car which to keep it safe on the road needs to be worked on by someone with marque knowledge.
Good luck!
 

smg800

New Member
Messages
66
Thanks guys, this is what I was thinking of doing. I am going to advise I wish to take it to my nearest Maserati or independent Maserati specialist and for them to foot the bill or the alternative is I hand the car back to them - which I know they wont want to do particularly. Me neither to be fair, seeing it would involve another drive up to Glasgow and a load of hassle with the paperwork/finance etc but hopefully it will incentivise them to do what is right, i.e. leave the repair of this vehicle in the hands of someone who knows the vehicles well enough!
 

smg800

New Member
Messages
66
The most baffling aspect is that Gray Paul in Edinburgh inspected this vehicle in December and the rear brakes/pads were deemed to be in fine condition!
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,220
De-lamination tends to occur after a period of non-use. If it has been with dealers a while that would be enough. As far as the brake check, I would suggest they didn't have the drums off, if you are lucky they had the wheels off to check the disks and pads. Bad show for sure but not uncommon. If the shoes were still in place albeit just at the MOT it may well have passed.

Not a good introduction to the marque but mine did just that :( My very first job was to rebuild the handbrake...
 

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,547
What Newton said. They may well have worked under test. I really doubt they took them apart.

I'll add one to my personal sore sheet though ;)

C
 

TridentTested

Member
Messages
1,819
Secondly the supposed Health Check and MOT clearly weren't as comprehensive as one would hope

They will try telling you their mechanics are highly trained and able to deal with a pair of brakes. You can use the above inadequacy as proof that they are not up to the job and thus insist it is dealt with by a Maserati main dealer or recognised specialist. You could even offer to leave the choice of specialist up to Arnold Clarke, as I'm sure any Maserati garage would be able to deal with this.

Sadly, I've had experience with another marque's main dealer, UK importer and HQ as it happened, failing to notice illegal tread depth and flat-spotted tyres on a one-year-old, "Select Approved" 112 point inspected, car they sold me.

I take all such "Health Check" schemes with a pinch of salt now.
 

hodroyd

Member
Messages
14,150
It' seems clear who ever did the health check only skimmed over the essentials and obviously did not know the the disc hub contained drum brake shoes. The shoes are prone to siezing to the drums, if it has for example been parked when wet and the handbrake applied, they dry out, the drum starts to rust and hey presto they stick. Under normal use when the shoes are OK, a regular application of the handbrake 2 or 3 times for a few seconds at low speed, will keep the drums clean of rust build up and the shoes clean..!!
 

rs48635

Member
Messages
3,181
Agree with ^^^^ above.

In addition, those brake drums have been in a state for quite some time, perhaps forever!
Keep hold of the original brake shoes, we can get the re-lined by Belfast brakes for VERY reasonable costs.

I would insist on the rework being done by a Maserati specialist, even let them choose. Their inspection clearly was not sufficient.
20 / 20 hindsight, but did you get a independent inspection? This is one of the pitfalls that an experienced mechanic / engineer might sniff out. Was your handbrake like an erect member when applied ?;) (adjusted to the max)
 

hodroyd

Member
Messages
14,150
Those shoes look old and must have delaminated some time before looking at them, I would be amazed if the handbrake actually worked at all, unless the other side had some material left on them..??
 

bigbob

Member
Messages
8,952
It' seems clear who ever did the health check only skimmed over the essentials and obviously did not know the the disc hub contained drum brake shoes. The shoes are prone to siezing to the drums, if it has for example been parked when wet and the handbrake applied, they dry out, the drum starts to rust and hey presto they stick. Under normal use when the shoes are OK, a regular application of the handbrake 2 or 3 times for a few seconds at low speed, will keep the drums clean of rust build up and the shoes clean..!!

All makes sense and I have done this on my 4200 before, however, how easy is it to do on the GT with it's EPB?

FWIW I always park with the EPB off if I am parking up when the car is wet.
 

bigbob

Member
Messages
8,952
Your car has the later grooved discs from the GranTurismo Sport so make sure that they fit LFL. I think that the pads are unchanged but worth checking also.

Overall it's hard to call when this built up but if the previous owner parked it up for long periods when wet and/or outside with the EPB on then it could have been building up for a while and it just happened to happen when it did. It's a common problem with many cars that have EPB's that auto apply when switching off.

PS The EPB on the GranTurismo is not great when working fine - try it on a hill at a set of traffic lights with the car in neutral.
 

smg800

New Member
Messages
66
The car was stood for a very long time, I did quite a bit of digging on the vehicle before purchase as it missed a service (car is a December 2009, was serviced in November 2010 at 12k miles then wasn't serviced until 20k miles which was May 2014!!). The person who bought it in between these 2 periods was under the impression it was serviced in between (he was told this by the same main dealer that apparently conducted the health check who he bought the car off in 2012.....) but it materialised it hadn't been and the reason/excuse being it was largely stood for this period - not that that is a reason to not get it serviced.

The last owner rarely drove it himself, it went into PK Supercars in May 14 and had only done about 500 miles since when I picked it up at the end of December 2014.

The slightly lacking service history almost put me off buying the car but the fact it had been sent to Maserati for a health check before my purchase and that they'd picked up bushes, a new instrument cluster etc which were paid for by the dealer I bought it from convinced me I would be ok!

I have done a lot more driving than I normally would due to it being Christmas, visiting family etc - I would normally do 50 odd miles a week only using the car on weekends, but in the 12 days since picking her up I have added about 700-800 to the clock so I guess the combination of the car being stood for so long and then being driven a lot may have contributed, although as someone has rightly pointed out those shoes look like they delaminated quite some time ago!

Being cynical I would suggest perhaps Maserati who did the health check weren't as thorough as they could have been as they weren't selling the car or warrantying it, and BMW who were selling the car weren't as thorough as they could have been on the MOT as it had just gone to Maserati for a Health Check so they assumed it would be fine.

Anyway it is going into Autoshield in Chorlton tomorrow who have been recommended by the forum as my local independent specialist, I had a chat with the guy on the phone and I feel confident it is going to be in good hands. I will certainly be asking them to check out everything else as I don't feel confident in the checks the car has had, and if they point out anything else major I have the option of trying to get any further work carried out at the dealers expense or handing the car back if they refuse.

Is there anything else that I should specifically be paying attention to? Thanks for all the help and suggestions thus far.
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,220
Personally I'd change every fluid I could just for reassurance, in particular, coolant, brake and power steering and these may not have been picked up within the scheduled servicing; I'd also ask them to pull the air and pollen filters to see if they have actually been changed and finally the aux belt is another that amazingly gets charged as being changed at services but often isn't. You can check this yourself with a torch and look for any cracking on the V's...

Regarding the de-lamination this I would think is a gradual process up to the point of failure. The friction material will stay in place right up until the last bit of bonding fails. You can almost read the failure in the discolouration on the metal surface up to the last bit which will look fresh.
 

bigbob

Member
Messages
8,952
At the end of the day you have bought a good value car with a warranty and it will now be fixed so I would not worry. Buying with a Maserati used car warranty would have given more piece of mind but the car would have cost more and, anyway, main dealers tend to shy away from cars once they get to five years old.

The trick is not to use the EPB if the car will park up for a long time and don't use it if the car is wet if you are parking up for more than a day or so.

I would get them to check the battery and give a health check on the front brakes. It intrigues me that a 20,000 mile car has uprated brakes as brakes on the GranTurismo can last up to 40,000 miles.